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Thread: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

  1. #421
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    If you now recognize, as the Assyrian piece pointed out, that Maliki "decimated Sunnis," that is progress.

    A process still going on, as the Sunnis of Iraq are now yet another, larger, religious minority being decimated. As the Workers Vanguard article on the destruction of Mosul and Raqqa I posted to the Syrian thread, which belongs here too, pointed out,

    "Imperialist machinations have sharply intensified the conflict between Shia and Sunni Muslims. The war against the Sunni-based ISIS has served as a pretext for Shia forces to ethnically cleanse majority Sunni cities in Iraq, with Kirkuk province alone receiving some 500,000 displaced Sunni Arabs."

    http://www.spartacist.org/english/wv...near_east.html

    -AMH-
    Unlike people on the west imbibing their news from commerical western media and neocon think tanks, the people in Iraq and Syria have no doubt that the US is out to carve up their states.
    Now when al-Maliki asks for help to stop ISIS from taking over the country, the U.S. doesn't want to help him. The U.S. does not want a united stable Iraq, they want pieces of the former Iraq, it is now very clear."
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #422
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Unlike people on the west imbibing their news from commerical western media and neocon think tanks, the people in Iraq and Syria have no doubt that the US is out to carve up their states.
    Among the imperial thinktankers inside the Beltway, some want to carve up Syria and Iraq into more manageable smaller pieces, some prefer keeping the boundary lines as is. For easier and more trouble free economic exploitation, believing they have quite enough control over the ruling elites already for US purposes. Neocolonialism is cheaper than old style colonialism, with the local ruling elites assigned the expensive task of keeping the people subdued.

    Opinion polling of Iraqis and Syrians on things like that has not been done, and would be very tricky to do in wartime. But really, what does it matter one way or the other? If general public opinion there is along the lines you think, public opinion could be right or could be wrong, but what difference does it really make?

    Either way, the strategic plan of the US for the Middle East is to maintain US control, so that the US Navy in the Persian Gulf and the US airforce at various bases and the US troops in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere have their fingers around the neck of the world's oil supply, still the main thing keeping the world economy going, and can squeeze at pleasure.

    -AMH-

  3. #423
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    The truth about the murderous siege of Mosul begins to leak out, as ISIS finally nears obliteration there-and Mosul too.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/w...n%2Fmiddleeast

    -AMH-

  4. #424
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    More on the slaugher of Mosul, some unsupported opinion that the Middle East is breaking up due to internal environmental and economic strains, and an interesting section on Fallujah based on an interview with a former US soldier who fought there. The author of the article ignores all the evidence that the US and UK intervention deliberately fuelled sectarianism and fails to explain how the ME would have been shattered if not for the US invasion of Iraq and NATO bombardment of Libya.

    Caputi saw first-hand as a soldier in Fallujah that the insurgency in 2004 was not, at that time, dominated by al-Qaeda. Instead, according to him, on the pretext of targeting al-Qaeda insurgents, the US military was for the most part targeting and killing Iraqi civilians.
    He describes one astonishing example: when doctors at the main hospital in the city announced that US bombing had led to significant civilian casualties, the US military officially saw them as a "terrorist-supportive staff" and the hospital itself as "little more than a nest of insurgent propagandists" – because "they had used the facility to issue claims of non-existent civilian casualties".

    Eventually, US troops moved to take control of the hospital on the eve of the main US assault on Fallujah. This, Caputi recalls, was considered an "information operations" success for the US.
    http://www.middleeasteye.net/essays/...ast-1887306183

    The US priority was to prevent a joint Sunni Shia insurgency, which was becoming a reality. http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...RAND_MG738.pdf

    No scheme was too dirty to implement to prevent this from happening.

    The article also contains an important account of the history of Camp Bucca and how ISIS very likely emerged from it. The writer guesses at the motivation of the backing for this group. Fracturing the anti-US insurgency covers it pretty well, imo.

    The report elaborated on what exactly this meant in Iraq: the US was forming "temporary alliances" with al-Qaeda-affiliated Sunni "nationalist insurgent groups" that had fought the US for four years in the form of "weapons and cash". Although these nationalists "have cooperated with al-Qaeda against US forces" in the past, they were now being supported to exploit "the common threat that al-Qaeda now poses to both parties".

    The idea was to fracture the insurgency from within, by co-opting its wider support base in the Sunni population. It sounds clever in theory, but in practice we now know that the strategy sowed the seeds of the birth of IS.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 28-05-2017 at 05:22 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  5. #425
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    More on the slaugher of Mosul, some unsupported opinion that the Middle East is breaking up due to internal environmental and economic strains, and an interesting section on Fallujah based on an interview with a former US soldier who fought there. The author of the article ignores all the evidence that the US and UK intervention deliberately fuelled sectarianism and fails to explain how the ME would have been shattered if not for the US invasion of Iraq and NATO bombardment of Libya.

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/essays/...ast-1887306183

    The US priority was to prevent a joint Sunni Shia insurgency, which was becoming a reality. http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...RAND_MG738.pdf

    No scheme was too dirty to implement to prevent this from happening.

    The article also contains an important account of the history of Camp Bucca and how ISIS very likely emerged from it. The writer guesses at the motivation of the backing for this group. Fracturing the anti-US insurgency covers it pretty well, imo.
    An odd take on an interesting article.

    There is a whole section entitled "divide and rule," so I don't understand why you criticize it for allegedly not noting the US (at least) role in deliberately fomenting sectarianism. Which the article emphasizes. Though your notion of a "joint Sunni/Shi'a insurgency" in Iraq is a myth, there never was such a thing. Even at the height of the rebellion vs. the US occupation, the Sunni insurgency, basically led by former officers of the Iraqi army, and the Shi'ite semi-insurgency of Moqtada al-Sadr were utterly separate, even if there were brief moments when they cooperated against the US occupation, but essentially only rhetorically.

    And why you link that disgusting, cynical RAND report as evidence of joint Sunni-Shi'ite insurgency in Iraq is downright mysterious. Its 230 pages are all about US strategy options in the Middle East overall, and don't even mention the story of the Iraq insurgency. It's all about plans for the future, not history of the past. I tried searching it for "Iraq insurgency," "Shi'ite insurgency" and "Sunni insurgency," zero results. 29 results for "insurgency," not a single one in relation to Iraq! Its attitude to "divide and rule" strategies is best described as mildly disapproving, on tactical not moral grounds.

    The part on Camp Bucca is revealing about ISIS, but you have missed the most important thing in it altogether.

    Camp Bucca, it reveals to what ought to be nobody's surprise, was a site of abuse, torture and sometimes outright murder. It hardened and brutalized the victims-and then released them, as part of the "Awakening" scheme. And promptly abandoned them to Maliki's mercies when Obama decided it was no longer needed, because he saw Shi'ite sectarian Maliki as the ideal puppet. Not least to foster US/Iran collaboration, a major strategic objective for him.

    So some of them ended up as leaders of ISIS, despite the fact that the whole idea of the Awakening was to create a Sunni counterforce to AQIA i.e. ISIS. This does much to explain both how ISIS could be so successful so quickly and the extreme brutality and ruthlessness of ISIS. Reminiscent of the way the genocidal bombing of Cambodia by the US gave birth to the Khmer Rouge.

    The mounting water crisis in the Middle East-especially in Yemen, where it has taken on catastrophic dimensions-and the effects on the Middle East of the world economic crisis certainly have something to do with events. A strange thing for a Marxist to want to downplay.

    -AMH-

  6. #426
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    An odd take on an interesting article.

    There is a whole section entitled "divide and rule," so I don't understand why you criticize it for allegedly not noting the US (at least) role in deliberately fomenting sectarianism. Which the article emphasizes. Though your notion of a "joint Sunni/Shi'a insurgency" in Iraq is a myth, there never was such a thing. Even at the height of the rebellion vs. the US occupation, the Sunni insurgency, basically led by former officers of the Iraqi army, and the Shi'ite semi-insurgency of Moqtada al-Sadr were utterly separate, even if there were brief moments when they cooperated against the US occupation, but essentially only rhetorically.

    And why you link that disgusting, cynical RAND report as evidence of joint Sunni-Shi'ite insurgency in Iraq is downright mysterious. Its 230 pages are all about US strategy options in the Middle East overall, and don't even mention the story of the Iraq insurgency. It's all about plans for the future, not history of the past. I tried searching it for "Iraq insurgency," "Shi'ite insurgency" and "Sunni insurgency," zero results. 29 results for "insurgency," not a single one in relation to Iraq! Its attitude to "divide and rule" strategies is best described as mildly disapproving, on tactical not moral grounds.

    The part on Camp Bucca is revealing about ISIS, but you have missed the most important thing in it altogether.

    Camp Bucca, it reveals to what ought to be nobody's surprise, was a site of abuse, torture and sometimes outright murder. It hardened and brutalized the victims-and then released them, as part of the "Awakening" scheme. And promptly abandoned them to Maliki's mercies when Obama decided it was no longer needed, because he saw Shi'ite sectarian Maliki as the ideal puppet. Not least to foster US/Iran collaboration, a major strategic objective for him.

    So some of them ended up as leaders of ISIS, despite the fact that the whole idea of the Awakening was to create a Sunni counterforce to AQIA i.e. ISIS. This does much to explain both how ISIS could be so successful so quickly and the extreme brutality and ruthlessness of ISIS. Reminiscent of the way the genocidal bombing of Cambodia by the US gave birth to the Khmer Rouge.

    The mounting water crisis in the Middle East-especially in Yemen, where it has taken on catastrophic dimensions-and the effects on the Middle East of the world economic crisis certainly have something to do with events. A strange thing for a Marxist to want to downplay.

    -AMH-
    I quoted the The Rand report as it was written for the US Government and advocated fostering sectarian divide in Iraq.

    There was a stage of the Iraqi insurgency when a joint insurgency against the Americans was a very strong possibility, and Sunni and Shia groups were both fighting the US. Then, lo and behold, mystery murders and mosque bombings started (and have never stopped), driving Sunni and Shia apart.

    I note your interpretation of the origin of ISIS as blowback.

    I remain unconvinced. There is in my view, and in the view of most of the people who live in the M.E., too much about the origin, style, timing and funding of ISIS that is 'all wrong' for an indigenous insurgency. There is another possible explanation which you don't consider.

    Bagdhadi was a US "trustee" prisoner in Camp Bucca, by several accounts, i.e. a U.S. favourite and collaborator, and not enduring torture of any kind.

    It should be remembered that the US sponsored and built up murder gangs who included ex-Sadam Sunni officers, and had them on the US payroll, post invasion.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    The concentration camps constructed outside Mosul for 'displaced persons' have begun their work. 800 people poisoned yesterday by charitable food supplies. Several dead. UNHCR on the ground - reminds me of Haiti which was cholera-free until they arrived.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #428
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    ISIS reportedly only holding about a square mile of the Old City now. Still blowing up mosque and people to the last...
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Canadian sniper took out an ISIS guy in Mosul with world's longest shot, just over 2 miles, had to take curvature of earth, and wind into consideration. Bullet took just under 11 seconds to travel.
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    Canadian sniper took out an ISIS guy in Mosul with world's longest shot, just over 2 miles, had to take curvature of earth, and wind into consideration. Bullet took just under 11 seconds to travel.
    Apart from the fact that you wrote that down, do people have any reason to believe it is true ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Beeb reported this yesterday.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  12. #432
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    Beeb reported this yesterday.
    " Being a sniper is quite personal. It's a... I've done loads of tours as a sniper. So, its not the joys of killing, it's a job. I take a lot of medication. I find it hard to sleep at night. Um. I have flashbacks all the time. "What do you see in those flashbacks?" " People I've killed. Ah. My wife says they've go a life as well - they're fighting. We got better equipment than them. We are there to do a job. Every time I close my eyes, I get flashbacks. I was blown up by an anti tank mine, three days before that shot -I got shot in the helmet, we got bombarded the whole time.
    You see them spit on the floor. You see them talking. It's like you sitting next to me now. You own their life basically, for that split second. Then you take them out. Anyone who says you don't feel anything for the people is not telling the truth. You don't become immune."

    The previous record was held by British sniper, Craig Harrison, who shot and killed a Taliban attacker from 2,475 metres in 2009 using an L115A3 long range rifle.
    The government of Canada's Liberal Party Prime Minister Justin Trudeau halted air strikes against the so-called Islamic State in 2016.
    But at the same time, Mr Trudeau announced plans to treble the number of special forces on the ground, as well as increase the number of Canadian Armed Forces members who are tasked with training and assisting local forces
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #433
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Apart from the fact that you wrote that down, do people have any reason to believe it is true ?
    No, I was just fantasizing about fake news...........
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  14. #434
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Apart from the fact that you wrote that down, do people have any reason to believe it is true ?
    I don't know enough about military technology to know if that is actually possible, but if it is technically possible, I do not find it unbelievable.

    Reminds me of an important military datum from the Vietnam War.

    The US military were fond of specialized sniper rifles for super-trained Green Berets and whatnot, and the average soldier used the M-16, then state of the art. Technically a fine rifle, which because it was so sophisticated broke down frequently in Vietnamese swamps and jungles, was tricky to fix, and required a fair amount of training. The stuff the Green Berets used, even more so.

    The NLF and NVA didn't bother with fancy rifles and lengthily trained super soldier snipers. Instead, they gave everybody the AK-47, a technically outmoded WWII rifle that was incredibly durable, required little training to use, held up in all conditions, and was easy to fix when it did break down.

    One of the reasons the Vietnamese won and the US lost.

    -AMH-

  15. #435
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    Default Re: Iraq War Ending...........Almost In Secret

    The blowing up of the Great Mosque at Mosul by ISIS confirms if anyone wants to go by anything materially real that ISIS is not an Islamic group.

    Unless you count the bastardised and deformed Frankenstein monster promulgated by the Saudis on behalf of their western allies.
    In 1997, Amnesty International complained about “close political links” between the incumbent Taliban militia, who had recently conquered Kabul, and the US. The human rights group referred to credible “accounts of the madrasas (religious schools) which the Taleban attended in Pakistan,” indicating that “these links may have been established at the very inception of the Taleban movement.”
    One such account, reported Amnesty, came from the late Benazir Bhutto - then Pakistan’s Prime Minister - who “affirmed that the madrasas had been set up by Britain, the United States, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan during the Jihad, the Islamic resistance against Soviet occupation of Afghanistan”. Under US tutelage, Saudi Arabia was still funding those madrasas.
    US government-drafted textbooks designed to indoctrinate Afghan children into violent jihad during the Cold War, now approved by the Taliban, became part of the Afghan school system’s core curriculum, and were used extensively in militant madrasas in Pakistan being funded by Saudi Arabia and the Pakistani ISI with US support.
    http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns...ism-1323585268
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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