A Case for Open Borders

[fluffybiscuits]

Borders are a state of mind - mankind needs a common enemy to combine - reason or rational does not enter into it.

+1

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Well why not! Teach them the basics and by the time they get to fifth class lets teach them to critically think, teach them Chinese, German, Arabic etc.!

Oh I absolutely agree with you FB. But there is no way in hell that the public education system is going to start teaching kids to challenge authority. They've only just got them settled down to learning what they'll need for the workplace. Critical thinking is extra.

[fluffybiscuits]

Oh I absolutely agree with you FB. But there is no way in hell that the public education system is going to start teaching kids to challenge authority. They've only just got them settled down to learning what they'll need for the workplace. Critical thinking is extra.

Thats why we need parties like the ULA and other parties to challenge that and get some teeth in. Tear the current system up and replace it.

[jmcc]

If humans shared their resources and stopped being so materialistic they would not have to fight. Hence teaching kids at school.

I don't think that it would.

The monks were not interested in war when they wrote the book of Kells

Perhaps but they were more than aware of the threats that they faced.

and certainly I imagine Aristotle, a philosopher would not have had any interest in war.

I think he would have had some interest - he was Alexander's the Great's tutor.

Education doesnt need a society that is rich, just a society that has its needs fulfilled.

Genius and development needs one where there is something to strive for. The quest for knowledge is, in its own way, a war on ignorance.

Pythagoras theorm wasnt used in war!

It may well have been. Building defensive positions would be one possibility.

Regards...jmcc

[fluffybiscuits]

[quote=jmcc;190698]

I don't think that it would.

You have not got a lot of faith in humanity.

Perhaps but they were more than aware of the threats that they faced.

They would have shared knowledge perhaps being on alert but that still didnt stop learning. The fact the country is now in a crisis has meant people are upskilling more now

I think he would have had some interest - he was Alexander's the Great's tutor.

Aristotle recognised the importance of peace

"“It is more difficult to organize a peace than to win a war; but the fruits of victory will be lost if the peace is not organized.”

Genius and development needs one where there is something to strive for. The quest for knowledge is, in its own way, a war on ignorance.

You have just answered my point there, knowledge is a war on ignorance hence teach the kdis early

It may well have been. Building defensive positions would be one possibility.

Regards...jmcc

Any knowledge Im sure if used in some way could be applied unjustly..

[jmcc]

You have not got a lot of faith in humanity.

I have. It is just that it is rarely a black and white, good and evil split with humanity.

They would have shared knowledge perhaps being on alert but that still didnt stop learning. The fact the country is now in a crisis has meant people are upskilling more now

Well that's a good thing. But when a society is attacked, then there would be a change of focus.

Aristotle recognised the importance of peace

"“It is more difficult to organize a peace than to win a war; but the fruits of victory will be lost if the peace is not organized.”

It was almost as if he was talking about the Afghan campaign.

You have just answered my point there, knowledge is a war on ignorance hence teach the kdis early

Well teaching would be a good thing. Some of what kids get taught seems to be brainwashing.

Any knowledge Im sure if used in some way could be applied unjustly..

Defence is not necessarily unjust. But that gets back to the whole borders issue.

Regards...jmcc

[fluffybiscuits]

I have. It is just that it is rarely a black and white, good and evil split with humanity.

I dont disagree on that point!

Well that's a good thing. But when a society is attacked, then there would be a change of focus.

Knowledge gained through teach kids critical skills would be utilised through most situations, I would say IMO war would be one of them

It was almost as if he was talking about the Afghan campaign.

Well teaching would be a good thing. Some of what kids get taught seems to be brainwashing.

Religion comes to mind

Defence is not necessarily unjust. But that gets back to the whole borders issue.

There is a difference between self defence where justified and attacking someone for just their resources.

[C. Flower]

Borders can be physical limits (Ireland is a small island) or a political construct. It would be all very well if borders were lifted in order to promote social mobility but of course they are not.

Well, there is a border across the island. I can't say I think it has served any genuinely useful purpose. On PW, we don't observe it.

I'll believe in open borders when I see any evidence that it isn't just another enabler for the globalisation of cheap labour and when tax havens are eliminated for the wealthy. Until then open borders are just another label to be applied in a negative way to the little people- like taxes.

What's good for the wealthy would surely be good for everyone. Lack of resources, and poor distribution of the ones we have, seems to be the biggest problem. But I think in future this could be overcome.

[fluffybiscuits]

Well, there is a border across the island. I can't say I think it has served any genuinely useful purpose. On PW, we don't observe it.



What's good for the wealthy would surely be good for everyone. Lack of resources, and poor distribution of the ones we have, seems to be the biggest problem. But I think in future this could be overcome.

Got it in one. In the pursuit of more profit, capitalists will eventually drain the world of its resources leading to an inherently divided world. What limited resources we do have are in the hands mostly of the rich (Chinese govt and rare minerals) and what little is owned by the 99% they are bullied for (hence fair trade products and agreements)

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Well, there is a border across the island. I can't say I think it has served any genuinely useful purpose. On PW, we don't observe it.



What's good for the wealthy would surely be good for everyone. Lack of resources, and poor distribution of the ones we have, seems to be the biggest problem. But I think in future this could be overcome.

Sounds very close to the trickledown economics espoused by the wealthy in order to reinforce the notion that the world should be grateful for what falls from the table.

What is good for the wealthy is a range of downward pressures on any costs they have to pay for. That would include the free movement of people which results in a plentiful supply of servants who can be paid minimal amounts and daren't open their mouths at Massa because they can instantly be replaced.

Borders are an inconvenience to the wealthy- at one time just about 150 years ago English people didn't need passports and the British Empire wasn't slow in taking full advantage of the cheap local labour wherever they went- that same class was responsible in large part for the Opium wars which China has not yet forgotten.

Removing borders would be fine if globally we had a system of ratios whereby the wealthiest person could not earn more than a certain multiple of the poorest or swingeing taxes would come into play.

Otherwise globalisation is just an opportunity for the rentier class to remove an inconvenience for them and always keep servant hire costs down.

It was no accident that 'luxury' was once an indictable crime in Greece and in early Rome too if I'm not mistaken. It was regarded as socially poor behaviour to indulge in conspicuous consumption of consumer goods and a wealthy man could be charged and fined for it on the basis that displays of individual wealth was an attack on soceity- I can only surmise because of the creation of envy and discord in the City state.

There is only a case in my mind for open borders when we have laws globally on minimum wages and a ratio the 'wealth creator' can earn before bumping into a regulatory ceiling beyond which it is unwise to go and criminal to evade.

[fluffybiscuits]

People would not be however working for little or nothing, they could form unions which would empower them and when an employer does mistreat an employee there would be strength in numbers in terms of strikes etc.What open borders would do is create an equal and level playing field for all. We want to ensure that everyone has a roof over their head,food,warmth and clothing. A global minimum wage is a fantastic idea but also a minimum standard of living should be included too so we can strive to achieve a particular standard and then based on that once that is fulfilled humanity can then look to living beyond its comfort zone.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Agreed but there is no way that the wealthy rentier class want to see an end to borders. Borders are required so they can hide their money from any tax liability. So as long as laws allow tax havens open borders is a non-runner.

Globalisation of union membership is not on the agenda when it comes to globalisation per se. It offends the wealthy when anyone tries to tell them they have any responsibility whatsoever to the rest of society.

That notion, like taxes, is for the plebs. There is only one advantage the rest of the world has over the superwealthy 1%- numbers. Not much point in being superwealthy if you have to live in a concrete pillbox underground because the rest of society despises you.

If you want to solve the problem of global wealth inequity then you have to threaten the superwealthy with loss of privileges unless they contribute in a meanningful way. They like to pretend they contribute which is what the global 'philanthropy' sector is in fact- a massive PR campaign which rich people get to front and everyone else gets to pay for.

In fact I've a great love of the idea that 'luxury'should become a crime again and enforceable by massive fines.

By luxury I don't mean taking away Granny's chocolate bar she likes to have when watching Eoin McLove on RTE or whatever but I do mean a calculation of the mean share in resources and someone like Abrahamovich who has clearly lost any sense of what money means should have his fortune confiscated along with the damn stupid fleet of yachts back down to the mean resource level.

[fluffybiscuits]

This would then require changing the financial culture that is in place in certain nations around the world. This could be done by encouraging a large proportion of people to vote for the left wing parties or parties with similar outlook in order to close tax loopholes. The absurd wealth on display is stomach churning. I remember years ago being out with a friend, I was’nt drinking and he worked (still does) in AIB. They all went drinking in one of the D4 pubs. Bottles of Bollinger mixed with red bull and lashed back were the order of the day. They all went on later to Lapellos where there was thousands spent on lapdances and buying drinks for the girls. Its this type of obscene wealth we need to target. Am I coming across as being bitter?

[irishuk]

This would then require changing the financial culture that is in place in certain nations around the world. This could be done by encouraging a large proportion of people to vote for the left wing parties or parties with similar outlook in order to close tax loopholes. The absurd wealth on display is stomach churning. I remember years ago being out with a friend, I was’nt drinking and he worked (still does) in AIB. They all went drinking in one of the D4 pubs. Bottles of Bollinger mixed with red bull and lashed back were the order of the day. They all went on later to Lapellos where there was thousands spent on lapdances and buying drinks for the girls. Its this type of obscene wealth we need to target. Am I coming across as being bitter?

No,just jealous. Perhaps if the guys had offered to buy you drinks and asked you to do a lapdance for them I'm pretty sure you would have had a wonderful and memorable night.
Your little cheeks would have been red with delight,wouldn't they?
Oh,those horrible,and doubtless right wing girls!

[fluffybiscuits]

No,just jealous. Perhaps if the guys had offered to buy you drinks and asked you to do a lapdance for them I'm pretty sure you would have had a wonderful and memorable night.
Your little cheeks would have been red with delight,wouldn't they?
Oh,those horrible,and doubtless right wing girls!

Now if it was Sean O Brien I would be delighted , I wouldnt complain Certain anarchists would see so much luxury being rubbed in the faces of those struggling as the perfect illustration of the inequalities in society. I take it your economic circumstances dictated your move to the UK?