The Children's Politics, Education and Costs Thread

[morticia]

just thought I'd start a thread to deal with the concerns of children, their rights, schooling, activities and interests etc.

After all, little people play a large part in many of our lives, and will be providing essential services when many of us are drooling into our Zimmerframes etc.

In this instance, I'd also like to have a moan about school bills and organization.... it's unbelievable. Note: my kids are at a state school. Warning; rant alert!

We are nowhere near the end of September, yet, and in fairness to us, we tried to spread the bills by buying required uniform in June, and the school books were also ordered and paid for at the end of the summer. In fairness, the school had them delivered for us to pick up there, which was good.

BUT; the uniforms; two crested tops plus shirt, plus skirts for the girls, all 20-30 euros each. Great fun if you have one of each sex. Trousers can be had from Dunnes. Bill; well over E100.

Then the books; about E150 for both.

Then the September bills; E24-6something for school milk for 2, E2 per child for headphones for the computers (it appears no item is too small to individually charge parents for). E110 odd for a school book sharing/equipment scheme (two kids), and E140 for the "highly recommended" Playball activity (this is per term, so two more such bills during the year), E20 for compulsory parents association contribution, plus extra for any activities....

Oh, and next month they'll be looking for the "voluntary contribution"; E500 for two children.

I estimate that the compulsory (not including extra curricular activities) elements of this have cost me E960 so far. How the hell do the unemployed/low waged cope?

I'm in a major deficit for this month and both myself and the other half are lucky enough to actually work full time

Which leads me to another gripe; the school has organized two SEPARATE parents info sessions for the two separate classes my kids are in; AT 12.45 and 1.45 in the MIDDLE OF THE DAY on two DIFFERENT days in ONE WEEK.

Didn't show up to the one that one child has been through already (figured we knew the score, the teacher hasn't changed), only to be met with wails from child concerned as she felt she'd been singled out because she was one of the few without a parent present.

And I guess I shouldn't moan, because our school is one of the few to open at 8.30...many/most are 8.45-9.15, or so I gather. However, whichever of us does the school run doesn't get to work until 9.30, even so.

So HOW THE HELL are we supposed to pay all the blinking bills, deal with the escalating mortgage, pay the afterschool childcare, keep our jobs, and show up to all the BLOODY midday school info sessions, all at the same time??

A Note to our Glorious Leaders.... if you want qualified women to keep working and support your gradually expiring economy, could you PLEASE ENSURE THE &*)&^($%$^ EDUCATION SYSTEM PROVIDES SOME SUPPORT.... at a reasonable cost

Oh, and the class sizes; 30 for one child, now 31 for the other....

AAARGGGHHH

[Theresa]

Ah Morticia

If you think it's bad now................

Despite Higher Education Grants and free fees college has cost over €2,000 this month. The grant is being "processed" so accommodation must be paid for then reimbursed whenever the local authority decide to pay - Laois is last by all accounts. Free fees only happens when you're grant approved which you can't be until the paperwork is done. So 1k half annual fees, 900 deposit and one months rent plus moving in supplies and moving costs (me driving miles a few times in one week!) Next months rent will be due soon.

Then there's my one in sixth year and the two in primary with pretty much similar costs as your own - although I wouldn't be forking out on crests - I gave the school a choice between the crest or the voluntary subscription last year!

The debs is Friday night and I've started saving for mock exam fees and next years debs.

We are literally living from the freezer and the garden.

On the bright side - they may still have the ECCE scheme for my baby next year

[C. Flower]

A lot of people must have got into debt over this. It is not a free school system at all.
In free systems, a parent just sends the child to school, not the child plus hundreds of euros.

Some parents are having to pay big school bus fees too.

Parents urgently need to get together on this, and make sure that next year is completely different.

PTAs to insist that teachers justify to them advance any changes in text books
At cost school run book scheme.
One set of books per subject curriculum. Why the heck should there be two alternative/competing text books for one subject (??)
Books to only change when curriculum changes - no more work books that are written into.
No crests
Dunnes uniform or none
No extra charges or (erhem) "compulsory contributions."

Parents to fund raise with advance agreement with school, if there are to be any extra charges for "extra" activities.

No more middle of the day school meetings. Have them at 8.30 or after 6.00. Teachers have long holidays and are well paid. In different jurisdictions, I've been to evening school meetings run by teachers on much lower salaries, who were glad to do it.

This would still be not truly a free system. That would mean the state would pay for all materials and books.

Morticia - surely the €500 for playing ball is a p-take ?

[morticia]

Teachers have long holidays and are well paid. In different jurisdictions, I've been to evening school meetings run by teachers on much lower salaries, who were glad to do it.

This would still be not truly a free system. That would mean the state would pay for all materials and books.

Morticia - surely the €500 for playing ball is a p-take ?

+100!

Sorry, must have mistyped.. the ball playing is E140 per term, the "voluntary contribution" is E500 (both for 2 kids, halve for the rate for one. However, who has only one child in this country?? The average appears to be 3 round where I live). Mind you, I guess E140 per term comes to E420 over the course of a year... however, since this isn't compulsory I shouldn't complain, probably. However, there is the peer pressure element and all their friends do it....I get enough flak about the other extra-curricular activities...they can't do them because of set after school pick up times and I don't want/can't afford to go part time. So the weekends and evenings get taken up with stuff they should be doing after school, but can't.

And then there's the school holidays. FFS, they add up to about 15-20 weeks, while the hols from work add up to 5 weeks each...and we occasionally like to take breaks together. Why the %(&^$^%( are many having to pay huge summer camp fees for coverage from say 9.30 to 3, for this length of time, while employers are getting less and less understanding?

Anyway, thanks for the support folks, and yes, Theresa, I had already figured some things would get worse as they get older. However, since I already pay E1240 per month in after school care, I'd imagine I'd get a few sets of college fees etc out of that!!! My sympathies for your troubles anyway. 7 years till the eldest hits 14 and can mind himself.... tick tock!! Meanwhile, the after school will be grown out of by the time he's 9 at the latest and I have *NO* idea how I'm going to cope thereafter....try and find a childminder, I guess.

Why is there NOTHING out there for after school for children between 8-9 and 14??

[Theresa]

Hi Morticia

Ask about a homework club in your area.

T

[concernedparent]

I must admit that reading all of the above the hair is standing on my head at the extra costs that some parents have to bear in relation to the education of their children.

The voluntary contribution in my teenage daughter's school is currently €50 for one child, down from €60 last year as an acknowledgement to the times we live in.

Yes the uniform was an expensive 1st year purchase, with crested jumper and specific coloured shirts and a kilted skirt, but following on from her sister's example, the skirt will do the six years in secondary with one replacement jumper and two replacement shirts during that time frame. She has basketball this evening at no extra cost, tomorrow foot ball at no extra cost. Additional costs are involved in matches when bus fares have to be factored into the equation.

My bugbear is school books. I am currently looking at piles of text books finished with after the Junior Cert cycle that are only fit for recycling. Attempts at selling or even passing them on is useless as they have been replaced by new editions or just replaced altogether. Next year will be an expensive one when the Leaving Cert cycle starts. My friend had one child entering 1st year and another entering the Leaving Cert cycle. Her book bill was in the region of €900 including necessary stationery etc.

[Baron von Biffo]

No more middle of the day school meetings. Have them at 8.30 or after 6.00. Teachers have long holidays and are well paid.

Doctors, dentists, accountants and barristers are all a lot better paid than teachers but how many of them will open up their offices outside working hours to facilitate you? Why is it that of all the professions we only want teachers to be at our beck and call whenever it suits us?

[morticia]

Doctors, dentists, accountants and barristers are all a lot better paid than teachers but how many of them will open up their offices outside working hours to facilitate you? Why is it that of all the professions we only want teachers to be at our beck and call whenever it suits us?

Nonsense.

Ever heard of A and E? Swift care clinics? You can get an emergency dentist for people with excruciating toothache (once had to do so for a room-mate), and, having known a good few accountants and lawyers, they are no strangers to overtime. Well paid, but overtime nonetheless. Doctors in particular, do NOT work 9-5.

As for teachers, since they get 8 weeks off in the summer (and another 7 during the year) and the working day in primary school ends at 2.15-2.30 (probably 4-5 ish once the admin and prep is done), they could give a little a few evenings a year.

In fact, I don't even need them to do that. Why can't they schedule the parent info for after morning drop off, then you miss an hour of work, not the whole £$^*($%$£ afternoon.

Finally, since we have some of the shortest school days and longest school holidays in Europe, plus some of the best paid teachers, could they not give a little?
Schools in the UK run their own after school/homework clubs, and breakfast clubs so working parents can drop at 8am and be at their desks by 9.

If they want us to pay our mortgages, perhaps some consideration should be given to similar

[morticia]

The voluntary contribution in my teenage daughter's school is currently €50 for one child, down from €60 last year as an acknowledgement to the times we live in.

My friend had one child entering 1st year and another entering the Leaving Cert cycle. Her book bill was in the region of €900 including necessary stationery etc.

I have a horrible feeling I'm paying for living in South Dublin...I gather the average voluntary contribution is about E100. Ours is 250 per child.

I think they ARE trying to do something about workbooks and book churn for second level (I heard the Minister pontificating on the news a few weeks ago). Unfortunately, at primary they are all still workbooks, non-recyclable for the most part, except the readers which they are now lending around from a central pool. Problem is, the book lists were about E150 for two kids, and THEN they charged 110 for stationery etc (pencils etc not included; I had to pay for those). Plus the voluntary contribution on top. Unfortunately, I can see the point of having workbooks for young children, but ouch, the expense.

As for the uniforms, they're just a scandal. Generics with stitch on crests would be unbelievably cheaper.

[C. Flower]

Doctors, dentists, accountants and barristers are all a lot better paid than teachers but how many of them will open up their offices outside working hours to facilitate you? Why is it that of all the professions we only want teachers to be at our beck and call whenever it suits us?

All of these people, bar accountants (and I'm not sure what they do that one can't do oneself on an excel spreadsheet ), work non-standard hours and locations. Teachers have very long holidays and longer than average life expectancy, in spite of having an admittedly difficult job during classroom hours.

[Baron von Biffo]

All of these people, bar accountants (and I'm not sure what they do that one can't do oneself on an excel spreadsheet ), work non-standard hours and locations. Teachers have very long holidays and longer than average life expectancy, in spite of having an admittedly difficult job during classroom hours.

My GP works form 10 to 4.30 at his surgery. The consultants I see work between their rooms and a hospital. The barristers I've had dealings with would certainly visit company premises but at a hefty price.

If your child needs a filing will the dentist come in at 7.00 in the evening to do it? Will your GP open up at that time to give her a vaccine? Of course they wont. So why expect the teacher to do it?

[C. Flower]

My GP works form 10 to 4.30 at his surgery. The consultants I see work between their rooms and a hospital. The barristers I've had dealings with would certainly visit company premises but at a hefty price.

If your child needs a filing will the dentist come in at 7.00 in the evening to do it? Will your GP open up at that time to give her a vaccine? Of course they wont. So why expect the teacher to do it?

GPs do house calls 24/7. Even my vet did a house call when my dog was dying

Consultants get called out all hours too. Nurses work all hours. People in public transport. etc. etc.

People producing newspapers and television work around the clock.

[Baron von Biffo]

GPs do house calls 24/7. Even my vet did a house call when my dog was dying

Consultants get called out all hours too. Nurses work all hours. People in public transport. etc. etc.

People producing newspapers and television work around the clock.

Unless you call out Midoc here I don't think you'd get a GP to do a house call and they're specifically set up for that sort of cover. Doctors, consultants and vets doing call outs are doing so for urgent/emergency cases. PT meetings aren't urgent, they're a normal part of a child's education.

Nurses, tv crews etc work atypical hours because the work they do requires 24 hour cover. Teaching doesn't require 24 hour cover, we just want teachers to do extra work to rid us of the inconvenience of meeting them during the same hours we'd meet other professionals.

[morticia]

Teaching doesn't require 24 hour cover, we just want teachers to do extra work to rid us of the inconvenience of meeting them during the same hours we'd meet other professionals.

They work shorter hours than other professionals, so why not? 15 weeks hols per annum is not standard for the professions you list. But as I said earlier, I don't even need them to do that, just schedule the class information session at drop off rather than pick up time (8.30-9am not 12.45-1.15/1.45-2.15).

by the way, this is not a PT meeting. Those will be extra days missed from work...I get limited holiday and I resent spending it at the behest of the school.

The difficulties in scheduling things like this (childcare arrangements for post creche age children) is possibly the main reason women quit the workforce, leaving themselves open to poverty if anything happens to their spouse (illness, accident, marital breakup etc).

Not to mention leaving the whole family at risk of mortgage default. I note you are not in favour of mortgage forgiveness, so perhaps a little more consideration for working women might save you, the reluctant taxpayer, from bailing out the banksters yet again.

I'd recommend a little joined up thinking.

[concernedparent]

Prior to the cutbacks in PS pay our local schools did have PT meetings outside of school hours and I attended in the evening.

It was definitely a plus(single working mother) but the only bug bear I had was of parents who felt the need to hog the teachers attention for anything up to 20-30 minutes at a time.

My children vary and have varied in their levels and educational abilities but surely any subject that is causing hassle to either child or teacher can be fairly dissected in 10-15 minute slot.