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Thread: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

  1. #46
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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    That's not true. Japan was made aware of the changes in the demands from "unconditional surrender" to "surrender of all armed forces" on July 26, yet the cabinet decided to "kill" the Potsdam Declaration "with contempt". 10 days which cost them dearly.

    Some of the dreamy scientists came up with the idiotic idea to invite Japanese envoys to some sort of demonstration on neutral grounds, but that of course never materialised.
    Had the Allies, read America, wanted it, the Japanese surrender overtures could have led to an armistice. They could still have maintained a pretence of sticking to the insane unconditional surrender demand but presented Japan with a surrender document that included their need to keep the Emperor on the throne and out of the war crimes courts.

    Since that's what Japan got after Hiroshima and Nagasaki anyway it made no sense to prolong the war unless it's accepted that America wanted to test its bombs.

  2. #47
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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Are you saying that America prolonged the war?

    The majority in Japan's war cabinet was in favour of fighting the Americans on the beaches.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  3. #48
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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    Are you saying that America prolonged the war?
    Yes I am saying that.

    America did very well out of WWII. It's rivals, both enemy and ally were weakened, it was thriving economically through sale of armaments, the war wasn't being fought on its territory and its losses were small relative to the other belligerents. It had more to gain than lose by prolonging the war in the Pacific long enough to test the bombs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    The majority in Japan's war cabinet was in favour of fighting the Americans on the beaches.
    I'm in favour of making the beast with two backs with the beautiful Polish woman who lives down the road. Ain't ever going to happen though.

  4. #49
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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Shhh... don't mention the Poles. Twas the restoration their sovereignty after all, that started this shltstorm. Wasn't much of an issue once the war was over.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Had the Allies, read America, wanted it, the Japanese surrender overtures could have led to an armistice. They could still have maintained a pretence of sticking to the insane unconditional surrender demand but presented Japan with a surrender document that included their need to keep the Emperor on the throne and out of the war crimes courts.

    Since that's what Japan got after Hiroshima and Nagasaki anyway it made no sense to prolong the war unless it's accepted that America wanted to test its bombs.
    Japans bioterror scientists who field tested on Chinese civilians, often examining the organs of live subjects via samari sword surgery, were granted complete immunity in return for their research data. Numerous Germans also got immunity for research gained from the death of human guinea pigs and slave laborers. Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised given that America was using its own citizens as human guinea pigs during and after the WW2 era.
    "Do not be misled by the promises of politicians. Remember that the whole history of Ireland is a record of betrayals by politicians and statesmen, and remembering this, spurn their lying promises and stand up for a United Ireland - an Ireland broad based upon the union of Labour and Nationality." - James Connolly.

  6. #51
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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Yes I am saying that.

    America did very well out of WWII. It's rivals, both enemy and ally were weakened, it was thriving economically through sale of armaments, the war wasn't being fought on its territory and its losses were small relative to the other belligerents. It had more to gain than lose by prolonging the war in the Pacific long enough to test the bombs.


    I think the reality is more complex. Truman was under huge pressure from Congress to finish the war quickly, once Berlin fell, there was a lot of domestic impatience about the Pacific War - the island hopping campaign had been fiercely criticized for its slowness.

    But it certainly is true to say that there were elements within the US Military who were concerned that a negotiated end to the war would leave a void in the Pacific and Asia that Stalin would fill (in reality, the Soviet Union was completely exhausted by the war, it was barely able to absorb the bits of Eastern Europe it had negotiated in Yalta).

    I suspect that one motivation for the nuclear bombing is that it allowed Truman to square a particular circle - give the public a decisive end to the war, while providing an excuse for a more aggressive role in Asia, which of course led directly to the Korean war.

    It should be noted of course that some historians, such as Norman Davies, have argued that it is legitimate to say that the Pacific War only really ended sometime in the late 1950's, when the last shakeouts of European colonialism ended with the end of wars in the Malay peninsula. In reality, after Japan surrendered, there was very large scale fighting for years, with a major war in Korea, and very intense insurgency wars all over SE Asia, China itself and other parts of the Pacific. In fact, several Japanese officers actually were decorated by the British for their part in the Malay Wars, those guys never stopped fighting. The 'final' form of Cold War Power in the Pacific, with the US dominating the region, the Soviet Union threatening at the fringes, and Red China as a big puzzle in the middle, only really took shape around about 1958 or so.

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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Also, just a message of terror to populations, not to rock any boats: an expression of power.

    There is a retired FAF man being interviewed on RTE 1 by Derek Mooney describing with apparent equanimity how he flew a nuclear armed plane at the time Kennedy was shot and expected he might have to use it.

    He described how he would fly in very low, 50 - 100 feet, drop the bomb and loop away - everything and everyone within 5 miles would have been obliterated.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    ... He described how he would fly in very low, 50 - 100 feet, drop the bomb and loop away - everything and everyone within 5 miles would have been obliterated.
    It takes a degree of sociopathy to be willing to deliberately kill children and civilians.

  9. #54
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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    It takes a degree of sociopathy to be willing to deliberately kill children and civilians.
    Yes. He was quite disturbing to listen to - monotone voice and no emotion.

    Derek Mooney also seemed surprisingly undisturbed by this.

    In general, human beings find it close to impossible to kill each other and have to be reprogrammed by the military to do so. Even then, most can't do it.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    The last crew member of Enola Gay has died aged 93.

    The Guardian
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  11. #56
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    Default Re: First Atomic Bomb Dropped - 6th August 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    The last crew member of Enola Gay has died aged 93.

    The Guardian
    Much too late.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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