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Thread: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Maidir Le: Re: Maidir Le: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Is it really? When was the last time post Good Friday Agreement, you heard of whole Brigades of the UVF erupting like this? Other than last month when the East Belfast UVF done something similar.
    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post
    Was there a whole brigade mobilised or just groups of young people by indivdual paramilitaries in their areas? From what I can see, it was more like the latter than the former, and there have been continuous outbreaks of rioting like this since the GFA was introduced.
    It was the ''latter'' according to the PSNI when it was first reported to play things down.
    It's the former when different area commanders give the go ahead for support actions. That could'nt happen without authorisation at senior command level.

    Show me were Loyalists have rioted like this post Ceasefire/GFA other than Drumcree and were the UVF have been directly implicated.
    Last edited by Trow; 11-07-2011 at 01:33 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Default Maidir Le: Re: Maidir Le: Re: Maidir Le: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    It was the ''latter'' according to the PSNI when it was first reported to play things down.
    It's the former when different area commanders give the go ahead for support actions. That could'nt happen without authorisation at senior command level.

    Show me were Loyalists have rioted like this post Ceasefire/GFA other than Drumcree and were the UVF have been directly implicated.
    In 2005 when the British government rescinded their recognition of a UVF ceasefire following riots they were accused of orchestrating.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/n...nd/4243652.stm
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    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
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    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
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  3. #33
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    Default Re: Maidir Le: Re: Maidir Le: Re: Maidir Le: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    It was the ''latter'' according to the PSNI when it was first reported to play things down.
    It's the former when different area commanders give the go ahead for support actions. That could'nt happen without authorisation at senior command level.

    Show me were Loyalists have rioted like this post Ceasefire/GFA other than Drumcree and were the UVF have been directly implicated.
    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post
    In 2005 when the British government rescinded their recognition of a UVF ceasefire following riots they were accused of orchestrating.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/n...nd/4243652.stm
    Very well, and did'nt the British Government go on to recognise the UVF political wing the PUP and bring them on board the ''Peace Process?''

    I'm calling the UVF for what they are in the wake of their weekend actions. ''Dissidents raising their ugly heads.''

    Why does'nt the British Government, the PSNI, Politicians and the Media call it the same?
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  4. #34
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    Default Re: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    I'm beginning to really hate the word dissident.

    To use it in this context makes no sense to me at all.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    I'm beginning to really hate the word dissident.

    To use it in this context makes no sense to me at all.
    I know what you mean. The Brit Government have even changed the word to ''residual terrorists'' when commenting in newspapers/media.

    Fact is, the UVF/PUP have signed up to the Good Friday Agreement and to adhere to policies there in including issues at community level including the flying of flags.

    When they [UVF] act outside or against the process's for dealing with that then they are ''dissenting.'' from the agreement and process.

    What else could you call it?

    Let's look at the word ''dissent''
    Dissent is a sentiment or philosophy of non-agreement or opposition to a prevailing idea (e.g. a government's policies) or an entity (e.g. an individual or political party which supports such policies). The term's antonyms include agreement, consensus (when all or nearly all parties agree on something) and consent (when one party agrees to a proposition made by another).
    In some political systems, dissent may be formally expressed by way of opposition politics, while politically repressive regimes may prohibit any form of dissent, leading to suppression of dissent and the encouragement of social or political activism.[citation needed] Individuals who do not conform or support the policies of certain states have been described as "dissidents." Several thinkers have argued that a healthy society needs not only to protect, but also to encourage dissent.[1][2]
    In a well-known letter to Arnold Ruge, Karl Marx wrote: "if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists, ruthless both in the sense of not being afraid of the results it arrives at and in the sense of being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be."[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissent
    Last edited by Trow; 11-07-2011 at 02:11 PM. Reason: include wikipedia link to the word dissent.
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  6. #36
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    Default Re: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Everythings great so it is.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...300495792.html

    As surfers crested the nearby waves, Mr Stevenson, who attended the visit of the Queen in Dublin, said he was recently spending quite a bit of time in the Republic – and was “thoroughly enjoying it”.
    Speaking in the Free State so he was. Whoda thunk it ?

    Todays other good news:-

    Frankie Gallagher of the Ulster Political Research Group expressed hope that the DUP, under the revitalised leadership of Peter Robinson, would engage with working-class loyalist communities who currently saw little benefit for them in the peace process.
    Mr Gallagher was speaking at Scoil Shamhraidh na Saoirse – a Sinn Féin summer school in Ballyvourney, Co Cork, where he said republicans and loyalists must become the guardians of each others’ civil rights to ensure the peace process works.

    A lack of investment along with poor social conditions was making working-class loyalists who had a “political disconnection” vulnerable to exploitation by extremists, as happened last month on the Short Strand, the Newtownards Road and Pottinger, he said.
    Speaking in the free State so he was. Whoda thunk it ?

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    Everythings great so it is.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...300495792.html


    Speaking in the Free State so he was. Whoda thunk it ?
    Not sure what is new here. There has been an Orange Order March at Rossnowlagh for ages as far as I know.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  8. #38
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    Default Maidir Le: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Trow, the dissident republicans are referred to as dissidents because they don't accept the prevailing position in the largest and most influential republican organisations. Provisional Sinn Féin in the 6 and Fianna Fáil in the 26 are the largest self-described republican organisations on the island in terms of membership, elected representatives and power. The republican organisations who oppose the GFA, regardless of their position on political violence, are dissidents because they oppose the position of mainstream republicans on the GFA and Stormont.

    Now, if we look at the Loyalist organisations, very few of them accepted the GFA because it brought Sinn Féin into a coalition government and gave the 26 county state a role in the running of the 6 counties. While the PUP has been part of the 'peace process', the UVF has never surrendered its weapons and prominent members of the PUP have left that movement as they see it as little more than a pawn of the UVF at this point in time. All of those organisations are inherently sectarian, and orchestrated violence like this outbreak is not isolated and happens at a low level quite often. The thinking that informs this violence, in short, represents the main current of political thought in Loyalism and as such it is erroneous to call those involved in this dissidents.
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    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
    Pat Rabitte, 1987

    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
    Michael Noonan, November 2010

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Not sure what is new here
    . There has been an Orange Order March at Rossnowlagh for ages as far as I know.
    Being in the Free State and " enjoying it " is new. Or at least saying so is, since the hypocritical bastards are here all the time but don't admit it to the "brethern '.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    I know what you mean. The Brit Government have even changed the word to ''residual terrorists'' when commenting in newspapers/media.

    Fact is, the UVF/PUP have signed up to the Good Friday Agreement and to adhere to policies there in including issues at community level including the flying of flags.

    When they [UVF] act outside or against the process's for dealing with that then they are ''dissenting.'' from the agreement and process.

    What else could you call it?

    Let's look at the word ''dissent''
    Dissent is a sentiment or philosophy of non-agreement or opposition to a prevailing idea (e.g. a government's policies) or an entity (e.g. an individual or political party which supports such policies). The term's antonyms include agreement, consensus (when all or nearly all parties agree on something) and consent (when one party agrees to a proposition made by another).
    In some political systems, dissent may be formally expressed by way of opposition politics, while politically repressive regimes may prohibit any form of dissent, leading to suppression of dissent and the encouragement of social or political activism.[citation needed] Individuals who do not conform or support the policies of certain states have been described as "dissidents." Several thinkers have argued that a healthy society needs not only to protect, but also to encourage dissent.[1][2]
    In a well-known letter to Arnold Ruge, Karl Marx wrote: "if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists, ruthless both in the sense of not being afraid of the results it arrives at and in the sense of being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be."[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissent
    The word dissident was originally used to marginalise. The fact that the political establishment and the press have recently turned against the expression is presumably an indication that they feel it has not succeeded in marginalising, so that they need to find a more extreme term. However, they can't throw the term "residual terrorists" about as a catch-all, in the way that "dissidents" is used.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Maidir Le: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post
    Now, if we look at the Loyalist organisations, very few of them accepted the GFA because it brought Sinn Féin into a coalition government and gave the 26 county state a role in the running of the 6 counties. While the PUP has been part of the 'peace process', the UVF has never surrendered its weapons .
    So was all this a lie?
    [Quote]...Two Northern Ireland loyalist paramilitary groups have said they have completed decommissioning.
    The UVF and Red Hand Commando said their weapons and explosives were "totally and irreversibly beyond use".

    [Quote]The leadership of the UVF/RHC said its disarmament process was overseen by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD) and in front of international witnesses.

    [Quote]The leader of the UVF-linked Progressive Unionist Party, Dawn Purvis, said the "war is over", adding Saturday was a "momentous day".
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8121842.stm
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  12. #42
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    Default Re: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    "Do not be misled by the promises of politicians. Remember that the whole history of Ireland is a record of betrayals by politicians and statesmen, and remembering this, spurn their lying promises and stand up for a United Ireland - an Ireland broad based upon the union of Labour and Nationality." - James Connolly.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Maidir Le: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    [quote=Trow;162486]So was all this a lie?
    [Quote]...Two Northern Ireland loyalist paramilitary groups have said they have completed decommissioning.
    The UVF and Red Hand Commando said their weapons and explosives were "totally and irreversibly beyond use".

    [Quote]The leadership of the UVF/RHC said its disarmament process was overseen by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD) and in front of international witnesses.

    The leader of the UVF-linked Progressive Unionist Party, Dawn Purvis, said the "war is over", adding Saturday was a "momentous day".
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8121842.stm
    Much of it was. Have a read of this: Purvis has left the UVF because she feels it's not committed to ending paramilitarism following Bobby Moffatt's murder.

    “There are progressive elements inside the UVF and Red Hand Commando who have been trying to steer a path that would eventually bring an end to paramilitarism but I felt that they were seriously hampered and I felt that the PUP, and what they were trying to do – give a voice to working class loyalist communities, to try and transform those communities – was being seriously hampered.

    “If you constantly have to ask questions about the wrong doing of others you’re not able to do normal politics, you’re not able to fight for working class people on working class issues and in the aftermath of the murder that’s what I toyed with for many days and I came to the conclusion that I had to go,” said Dawn.

    It’s also believed that Dawn wasn’t alone in coming to her conclusion that the Moffett murder was a step backwards for the UVF, with at least one long-serving member of the paramilitary’s brigade staff believed to have stepped down in protest. In the wake of Dawn’s resignation questions were raised as to why the Moffett murder prompted her to leave when the 26 murders attributed to the UVF since Purvis joined the PUP in 1994 hadn’t. For Dawn, it’s all about the context.

    “I joined the PUP after the ceasefire was called in 1994, I know some people have made much of when I joined and the amount of murders that were attributed to the UVF and the Red Hand Commando since that time. “Yes there were horrific murders committed by the UVF during that period but I also knew that those within the PUP and the UVF were doing their best to transform the organisation away from violence and towards peace. I think when we got the statement of intent in May 2007 from the UVF it was really a change in time and context, here we had a paramilitary organisation wedded to violence and responsible for some of the worst atrocities of the troubles saying they were intending to go away and that in my mind was a very strong statement.

    “It was also around the same time that devolution was restored and it gave a lot of hope to the community that on the back of all that. We also had the UVF and Red Hand Commando entering into a process that would eventually lead to decommissioning.

    “So here we had an organisation that had built up some credibility. Obviously you will have people who will disagree with that and ask how can you say any organisation responsible for murder can build up credibility, but it had built up credibility in terms of ‘here’s what we intend to do and by the way we’re decommissioning’, so within that context the UVF had indicated that politics was working and that they were going away.”

    She added: “I think the murder of Bobby Moffett not only undermined the credibility they had built up but also undermined the work of the PUP and people associated with the organisation that were working to bring an end to paramilitarism.

    “So the context to the Moffett murder was different, it was absolutely different. And people will look at what I did and say well why didn’t you walk away earlier when others died what I say though is; different context, different time.”

    While Dawn was trying to decide what her next step would be following the Moffett murder, rumour was rife that the PUP would split from the UVF and Red Hand Commando. Purvis though never saw that as a likely outcome explaining that the UVF need to break the link with the PUP by realising there is no longer a need for them to exist rather than the PUP breaking with them.
    http://www.lookleftonline.org/2010/12/going-it-alone/
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    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
    Pat Rabitte, 1987

    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
    Michael Noonan, November 2010

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Maidir Le: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    [quote=Trow;162486]So was all this a lie?
    [Quote]...Two Northern Ireland loyalist paramilitary groups have said they have completed decommissioning.
    The UVF and Red Hand Commando said their weapons and explosives were "totally and irreversibly beyond use".

    [Quote]The leadership of the UVF/RHC said its disarmament process was overseen by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD) and in front of international witnesses.

    The leader of the UVF-linked Progressive Unionist Party, Dawn Purvis, said the "war is over", adding Saturday was a "momentous day".
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8121842.stm
    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post
    Much of it was.
    Which only confirms they were undercover dissidents all along.
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    Default Re: Dissident Loyalism raises it's ugly head.

    Is the Free State Government still paying top dollar for media training for the leaders of these Loyalist terror groups?
    Two teenagers sitting on a sofa in Lurgan during a soft interview by Channel 4 were asked why militant Republicanism was gaining support in their area.
    They tried to articulate the reasons why, and were later charged by the Brits for supporting terrorism. Another is charged and jailed for holding a piece of paper at a Republican rally.
    Meanwhile Loyalist leaders openly declare their leadership, march on Catholic areas in paramilitary gear, stick their flags outside churches and we are told by the Brits, it's all legal apparently.
    The wheels are falling off this phony sham of a peace process.
    Last edited by truth.ie; 11-07-2011 at 07:25 PM.

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