Urban and Rural Ireland - A tale of two Irelands.

[DCon]

Howlin acknowledges the potential for an urban/rural divide

Meanwhile, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has accepted that a property tax based on market value could create a rural-urban divide.

However, Brendan Howlin said the Government is looking at ways to make the new property tax as fair as possible.

Mr Howlin said a final decision on the tax has not been made and Government discussions are still under way.

Minister for Finance Michael Noonan yesterday rejected an IMF proposal for a property tax of 0.5% of market value.

Mr Howlin also rejected that figure and said it will be a "much less impactive tax".

When questioned about a property tax based on market value rather than site value, Mr Howlin accepted there were issues of fairness that would need to be addressed.

"There is a property tax in every other European country that I've looked at and that's what the Troika demand we put in place in here," he said.

"There will be issues of fairness that must be addressed and all of that will be addressed before we publish the details of our scheme."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0911/pro...overnment.html

[MPB]

Howlin acknowledges the potential for an urban/rural divide




http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0911/pro...overnment.html

When he was looking at the tax regimes in every other European country, I wonder did he take the time to compare the rates of pay for Ministers and top Civil Servants?

[DCon]

When he was looking at the tax regimes in every other European country, I wonder did he take the time to compare the rates of pay for Ministers and top Civil Servants?

Or did he study their Stamp Duty (prepaid property tax) levels?

[MPB]

Or did he study their Stamp Duty (prepaid property tax) levels?

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

[Baron von Biffo]

Howlin acknowledges the potential for an urban/rural divide

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0911/pro...overnment.html

Howlin is just stating the obvious.

There's a direct link between the value of a house and the level of public services - The more services the more valuable the house. It's fair then have a value based tax. That will obviously see urban dwellers pay more than rural people and they don't like that.

Given the overwhelming domination of the cabinet by ministers from city constituencies I don't think there's a snowball's chance in Hell of a pure value based tax. My guess is that there will be a banded system to 'correct' for higher house prices in cities.

[Baron von Biffo]

Or did he study their Stamp Duty (prepaid property tax) levels?

That's an interesting point. The Celtic Kittens are much given to moaning about the stamp duty they paid and trying to use it to avoid paying property tax. All well and good, but in true Irish fashion they don't apply that standard to every situation.

There's a level of hostility to pensioners at the moment that's quite frightening. A flavour of what I'm talking about can be got from this article by Victoria White. The fact that the people she's attacking are those who paid tax at 65% on top of their PRSI and who paid mortgage interest at 14% and more on their homes isn't seen as worthy of consideration when it comes to making cuts.

[Slim Buddha]

Howlin is just stating the obvious.

There's a direct link between the value of a house and the level of public services - The more services the more valuable the house. It's fair then have a value based tax. That will obviously see urban dwellers pay more than rural people and they don't like that.

Given the overwhelming domination of the cabinet by ministers from city constituencies I don't think there's a snowball's chance in Hell of a pure value based tax. My guess is that there will be a banded system to 'correct' for higher house prices in cities.

Prove that crap for a start!!

[Slim Buddha]

Howlin is just stating the obvious.

There's a direct link between the value of a house and the level of public services - The more services the more valuable the house. It's fair then have a value based tax. That will obviously see urban dwellers pay more than rural people and they don't like that.

Given the overwhelming domination of the cabinet by ministers from city constituencies I don't think there's a snowball's chance in Hell of a pure value based tax. My guess is that there will be a banded system to 'correct' for higher house prices in cities.

And rightly so!!!!

Why souuld a guy in a two up , to'wo doun in Irishrtown pay more tha t a plushbottemed farmer who is unused to paying tax anyway but who nevertheless lives in a Southforkesque hacienda style domain on the lush Midland planes???

[Baron von Biffo]

Prove that crap for a start!!

Location, location, location. Houses don't cost more in cities because people like air pollution.

[Baron von Biffo]

And rightly so!!!!

Why souuld a guy in a two up , to'wo doun in Irishrtown pay more tha t a plushbottemed farmer who is unused to paying tax anyway but who nevertheless lives in a Southforkesque hacienda style domain on the lush Midland planes???

Now you're just being childish.

[Slim Buddha]

Now you're just being childish.

Childish?

If the government persist with this grossly unfair method of imposing a property tax, let us see the level of non-compliance!

I certainly wouldnt pay it!

I am also deeply aware that the Environment Minister is a rural TD, and expect his "thinking", such as it is, on the matter to influenced accordingly. Hopefully, his colleagues will bring him to heel!

[Baron von Biffo]

Childish?

If the government persist with this grossly unfair method of imposing a property tax, let us see the level of non-compliance!

I certainly wouldnt pay it!

I am also deeply aware that the Environment Minister is a rural TD, and expect his "thinking", such as it is, on the matter to influenced accordingly. Hopefully, his colleagues will bring him to heel!

The only fair way to do it is to have the highest RPT in those areas that have the highest levels of service. Doing it any other way means that those who don't have services are subsidising those who do.

[Baron von Biffo]

The Property tax issue is set out well by a Mr. Long from Galway in today's IT letters page.

"Sir, – According to the Department of the Environment and the Minister, Phil Hogan, the whole point of the planned property tax is to pay for local services that are currently funded by central government. But this point seems to be unknown to, or perhaps is being ignored by, some of your recent correspondents on the subject. Indeed, based on her comments, it even seems to have escaped the attention of our Minister of State for European Affairs, Lucinda Creighton.

May I point out that the size of a property has no bearing on the services the property or its owners have access to? This being so, why should size be used to determine the rate at which a property is taxed? As we know, these services include street lighting, maintenance of pavements, public parks, open spaces and recreational areas, libraries, public transport, street cleaning, the fire service and other related services. If a property is close to, or is provided with, all of the services mentioned then it should incur a higher rate of tax than a property with less access to such services.

Fintan Cronin (September 11th) illustrates the difference between the tax due in respect of a house in Dublin and against a similar property in rural Ireland.

Where I live there are no street lights. There are no parks or recreational areas and the open spaces are mostly inhabited by farm animals. There are no pavements and no regular road-cleaning. It is cheaper for me to buy a book online and have it delivered than to incur the cost of driving to and from a distant library, pay for parking while there and then repeat this process to return the book. The nearest, and can I state infrequent, public transport is a drive of several miles distance. The only service to which I can claim access is the fire service, and if I am ever unfortunate enough to need it a call-out charge will be imposed on me. Why should I have to pay the same amount of property tax as someone who does have access to those services?

There is paying your fair share, but that has to be balanced by having access to your fair share. – Yours, etc,

STEVEN LONG,

Kinvara, Co Galway."

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/in...#1224323960024

[fluffybiscuits]

The Property tax issue is set out well by a Mr. Long from Galway in today's IT letters page.

"Sir, – According to the Department of the Environment and the Minister, Phil Hogan, the whole point of the planned property tax is to pay for local services that are currently funded by central government. But this point seems to be unknown to, or perhaps is being ignored by, some of your recent correspondents on the subject. Indeed, based on her comments, it even seems to have escaped the attention of our Minister of State for European Affairs, Lucinda Creighton.

May I point out that the size of a property has no bearing on the services the property or its owners have access to? This being so, why should size be used to determine the rate at which a property is taxed? As we know, these services include street lighting, maintenance of pavements, public parks, open spaces and recreational areas, libraries, public transport, street cleaning, the fire service and other related services. If a property is close to, or is provided with, all of the services mentioned then it should incur a higher rate of tax than a property with less access to such services.

Fintan Cronin (September 11th) illustrates the difference between the tax due in respect of a house in Dublin and against a similar property in rural Ireland.

Where I live there are no street lights. There are no parks or recreational areas and the open spaces are mostly inhabited by farm animals. There are no pavements and no regular road-cleaning. It is cheaper for me to buy a book online and have it delivered than to incur the cost of driving to and from a distant library, pay for parking while there and then repeat this process to return the book. The nearest, and can I state infrequent, public transport is a drive of several miles distance. The only service to which I can claim access is the fire service, and if I am ever unfortunate enough to need it a call-out charge will be imposed on me. Why should I have to pay the same amount of property tax as someone who does have access to those services?

There is paying your fair share, but that has to be balanced by having access to your fair share. – Yours, etc,

STEVEN LONG,

Kinvara, Co Galway."

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/in...#1224323960024

The who;e issue of square footage is in relation to the ability of someone to pay. Those whom have the biggest houses would be the ones with the most ability to pay even though they access the same services. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need ...

[Baron von Biffo]

The who;e issue of square footage is in relation to the ability of someone to pay. Those whom have the biggest houses would be the ones with the most ability to pay even though they access the same services. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need ...

But that's not the case at all. Small houses in cities are worth a lot more than larger houses in the country because the latter have no services.