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Thread: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yojimbo View Post
    However, your final line is simply incorrect - carbon taxes have been advocated and implemented since well before the current crisis. It is playing into the hands of the oil companies and their ilk to take a cynical attitude that all the money is going to foreign banks - carbon taxes are an absolute necessity to promote both energy saving and investment in new technologies, they have nothing to do with the banking crisis.

    In an ideal world, you would be correct. However, if you think your carbon taxes are going to promote renewables in today's economic climate, think again. They're letting the private sector do the lifting there, while they use the revenues on day to day running of the economy, and bailing out the banks. And there's still a deficit. The carbon taxes are swallowed by non-renewable energy promoting expenditure...and we're talking orders of magnitude here

    And without promoting an alternative, you're asking people to cut back on consumption without, say, providing cheaper and cleaner transport, electricity, etc. So the economy gets it in the neck. Which makes the problem worse.

    I'd be all in favour of carbon taxes if they were hypothecated to provide cheaper, cleaner power. But as it is, we are being sold a pup.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    I'd be all in favour of carbon taxes if they were hypothecated to provide cheaper, cleaner power. But as it is, we are being sold a pup.
    No matter what they call it (carbon tax, universal social charge, interim household charge, etc.) our "elected" debt collectors representatives are only feeding the financial crime syndicate. This is not about "saving the planet" but perpetually enslaving mankind.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    In an ideal world, you would be correct. However, if you think your carbon taxes are going to promote renewables in today's economic climate, think again. They're letting the private sector do the lifting there, while they use the revenues on day to day running of the economy, and bailing out the banks. And there's still a deficit. The carbon taxes are swallowed by non-renewable energy promoting expenditure...and we're talking orders of magnitude here

    And without promoting an alternative, you're asking people to cut back on consumption without, say, providing cheaper and cleaner transport, electricity, etc. So the economy gets it in the neck. Which makes the problem worse.

    I'd be all in favour of carbon taxes if they were hypothecated to provide cheaper, cleaner power. But as it is, we are being sold a pup.
    I am in agreement with you on this one Morticia, all across Europe there are well structured pricing support programs for the promotion of alternative energy sources and in particular CHP Biomas-AD Biogas. In Italy a farmer or investor in one of these renewable energy projects will get paid 31cents/kw sold back to grid... this is bonus times for investors and it stimulates investment, in Germany and many other parts of Europe there are sliding scales of rates/kw sold back to grid to make the projects viable. I the UK they have the same policies under the ROCs .

    In Ireland its stopped dead in the water.. it was at one stage about 9 cents/kw that does not work in any business plan for these types of projects. A new tariff was to be signed off by Eamonn Ryan that would increase the rate to 14cents ( I think) but this was not signed off. To make matters worse there is that big row going on with the 600,000 ton incinerator for Dublin... which is a monster and it will mothball any private investment by waste companies for renewable energy, and then there will be the landfill tax coming down the tracks in Sept..

    Oh and SEAI have a note on their website that says CHP deployment program closed effective immediately ( source http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Biomass_CH...for_Proposals/)

    And Irish banks will not provide any money for these types of projects, RABO used to offer money in Ireland as they were involved in many AD biogas CHP projects in NL and Denmark, they pulled the plug in Ireland in 2009.

    Sad but true.. protection of existing energy providers is alive and well in my opinion.
    What does that PSO levy on our ESB bills about €40/year for domestic and €142/yr for small to medium use...??

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    In an ideal world, you would be correct. However, if you think your carbon taxes are going to promote renewables in today's economic climate, think again. They're letting the private sector do the lifting there, while they use the revenues on day to day running of the economy, and bailing out the banks. And there's still a deficit. The carbon taxes are swallowed by non-renewable energy promoting expenditure...and we're talking orders of magnitude here

    And without promoting an alternative, you're asking people to cut back on consumption without, say, providing cheaper and cleaner transport, electricity, etc. So the economy gets it in the neck. Which makes the problem worse.

    I'd be all in favour of carbon taxes if they were hypothecated to provide cheaper, cleaner power. But as it is, we are being sold a pup.
    I'd agree that in an ideal world they would by hypothecated, but that was always unlikely - for reasons I've never really understood, there is huge resistance to hypothecated taxes. But the essence of a carbon tax has always been to provide both a disincentive to use dirty fuels, and to provide a long term guaranteed 'floor' to coal/oil fuel costs to encourage individuals and industry to invest in alternatives.

    So even without parallel investment, carbon taxes still count as a progressive tax - they encourage a reduction in wasteful and polluting practices and encourage new investment - in contrast to direct income taxes or VAT.

    To tie arguments about carbon taxes to arguments about the banks or whatever is a category error - we have to have more taxes anyway, so we might as well have ones that are more progressive than the alternative.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Not if there is very little investment in renewables. In the medium to long term, it will make our economy criminally uncompetitive. The future belongs to those who either have vast fossil fuel reserves, or who can tap into renewables cheaply and competitively.

    We are doing neither, and are treating the symptoms (collapsing banks, unpayable debts) rather than the cause (hitting a brick wall on the growth front since the cheap energy that fuelled it is gone).

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    You know guys, I think we may be having the wrong debate. Fossil fuels are a) non-renewable and b) are about to run out.

    So, it actually doesn't matter if they're causing warming or cooling or whatever. We're going to have to cut back on them anyway.

    With juice at 150 cents a litre, that Prius would have saved me some money this weekend. And, unfortunately, with all the global warming we're having right now, I had to put the central heating on last night.

    One thing's for sure, it's going to cost me....oh, and the carbon taxes aren't really there for the sake of the environment. They are there to ensure foreign banks get repaid.
    AGW/Climate Change is not "the wrong debate". If you want to discuss about Peak Oil why don't you open a new thread?

    And the bank issue is also off topic here. Take as much and as fast as you can and don't bother about the future. And now? Of course it's the foreign banks or the EU/IMF or even carbon tax, but it was never our overestimation of our own capabilities or even our own greed... Can't listen to that any more.

    Here some reasons why fuel is getting more expensive.





    Carbon tax is about 4 cent a litre (<3%). You can save a lot more than that by driving energy-consciously. And that's exactly the target of this kind of levy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yojimbo View Post
    I agree with you about the necessity to cut back drastically on fossil fuel use for reasons other than just climate change - it is common sense for countries with good access to renewables to invest in them to maintain energy security.

    However, your final line is simply incorrect - carbon taxes have been advocated and implemented since well before the current crisis. It is playing into the hands of the oil companies and their ilk to take a cynical attitude that all the money is going to foreign banks - carbon taxes are an absolute necessity to promote both energy saving and investment in new technologies, they have nothing to do with the banking crisis.
    Correct.

    We see at the graphs above that living on petroleum oil and gas means just prosperity for a few who have made us 100% depending on them. That's the reason why this industry is spending billions to support Climate Change Denial.

    If we want sustainable prosperity for the most of us we should develop decentralised renewable energy sources such as wind, wave, tidal.. But also bio fuels are an option for us =>

    A new technology to produce bio fuels AND digest CO2 emissions at a single blow: Marine Algae.

    Jacobs University’s marine algae based CO2 mitigation technology tested in pilot plant in Bremen Blumenthal, Germany.

    As much as 30,000 litres of bio diesel can be produced per annum on just one hectar of land. The algae grow very fast and are fed with CO2 coming from a fuel burning power plant. They are 20 times as potent as canola.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9_-ZguuhBw

    Any farmer could do that with little investment.

    Combatting manmade climate change does not mean giving up prosperity. It means guiding us into a sustainable future, for us and our children.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSdnycHfLnQ
    Last edited by New Vision; 08-06-2011 at 03:32 AM.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    There are several threads on Peak Oil, and a post on the PW blog. Since the methods used to deal with climate change are mostly the same as those that need to be employed to deal with peak oil, the two, in my mind, go together, and need to be tackled together.

    They are bigger issues than the banking system (which is artificial anyway, and should therefore be within our power to reform).

    So, just to make myself PERFECTLY clear, I think that the carbon taxes that we pay should be put into renewables, and not the banks. The opposite is occurring and it is a problem.

    Algae, sure, great. Now, where are you going to get the capital to set up such a system?? Well, usually you'd go get a bank loan, but hey, they're not lending (despite the bailouts). So, I'm afraid the banks and investment in renewables are intimately linked to both peak oil AND climate change mitigation.

    And without capital, both climate change and, more seriously, increasing energy prices, will sink the lot of us.

    Yes, the oil companies are making more and more money selling less and less oil. That means more and more unemployment, debt default and misery. However, this should be quite effective in tackling climate change, since hopefully people will have to use less of it. Recession = fewer carbon emissions. If all you are worried about is climate change, be happy! The problem is, it also means serious hunger and deprivation.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    DECC accepts warning of rising peak oil risks

    09 Jun 2011

    Department of Energy and Climate Change consultation acknowledges real risk of significant long-term rises in oil prices

    Experts have urged the government to shield the UK against rising oil prices and market shocks as part of a major consultation which revealed a widespread concerns that global oil production will peak before 2030.

    The Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) yesterday published the results of a call from chief scientific advisor David Mackay for evidence to help predict the uncertain future supply and demand of crude oil.

    The 11 responses from experts including Shell and the UK Industry Taskforce on Peak Oil and Energy Security (ITPOES) revealed a consensus that prices are likely to increase to more than $100 per barrel in the medium term.

    Most said that total oil production will peak before 2030, and many argued that there will be significant supply constraints before 2020, with decline driven by geological and investment factors.

    Respondents urged the government to help protect the UK against shocks by making it a priority to reduce oil demand. They suggested this could be done with an increased focus on transport efficiency, as the sector accounted for 53 per cent of global oil demand in 2009.

    The government was also urged to lean on oil producing nations to phase out subsidies for oil products, which dampen demand responses to price increases.

    Responding to the consultation, a DECC spokesman admitted that there is a real risk of significant rises in oil prices and volatility. However, he stopped short of drawing any solid conclusions from the information-gathering exercise.

    "We do not subscribe to a particular view on when oil production is likely to peak," he said. "Whatever people's views on peak oil, and there are many, the key point is that the risk of significant rises in oil prices and volatility is real.

    "We are well aware of the conclusion [that conventional oil production is unlikely to grow in the future as it has in the past] and agree that there are significant challenges for investment in future oil production, and that there is a role for governments to play in working towards enhancing energy supplies and reducing demand for fossil fuels."

    However, John Miles, chairman of ITPOES, urged the government to take swift action to defend the UK against shocks.

    As revealed by BusinessGreen, ITPOES has been asked by DECC to advise the government on how it could reduce its exposure to peak oil, and has requested a meeting with the Treasury to discuss the matter.

    "There are a whole range of undoubtedly complex issues around energy supply and security but, as we have seen from volatility related to the current situation in the Middle East, we need to be prepared for the possibility that oil prices could soar above their current levels within the next five years," said Miles.

    "As such, we welcome the fact that the government is taking action and promoting renewables, but we would also emphasise the need for urgency here. That's why we are asking the government to think about some of the more difficult scenarios we could find ourselves in in five years' time and then ask: 'What might we wish we had done in 2011?'.

    "We are pleased that the minister has invited us to work with DECC on developing and testing these alternative scenarios."

    The news came as BP revealed yesterday that oil consumption rose by its fastest rate since 2004 last year, and that China became the world's largest energy consumer, overtaking the US.

    BP said that increases in fossil fuel consumption in 2010 suggest that global carbon dioxide emissions from energy use rose at their fastest rate since 1969.
    Which has been proven in this news clip:

    YouTube - &#x202a;World's carbon emissions hit record rise&#x202c;&rlm;

    World's carbon emissions hit record rise. We could reach the 32 Gt limit set for 2020 already within months. The 2 degrees target by end of this century seems to get out of reach. Climate change is likely to become uncontrollable.

    And here some answers to that:

    The Transition Timeline



    Shaun Chamberlin describes his book as following:

    "In overview, then, the first half of the book explores four different visions of how the next twenty years could pan out for the UK and world, before focusing on what might be considered the most desirable of these, the Transition Vision, and examining the practical details of this in depth. There is also a chapter here provided by Rob Hopkins, the originator of the Transition movement, in which he outlines the progress Transition initiatives have made to date, and provides a set of tools for communities working towards their local Energy Descent Action Plans (a key aspect of the Transition process).

    The second half of the book provides a thoroughly researched yet readable exploration of the latest evidence and thinking on climate change and peak oil, and the interactions between the two, including a section focused on their present and future impacts in the UK, and on our Government’s responses to date."

    => The Transition Timeline – a closer look

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    The rise in carbon emissions surprises me, tbh, since all around me, I'd see people using less, both here and in the UK. Anecdotally, similar initiatives are occurring in the US and Canada too....Government Motors has actually been rolling out much more efficient engines since the bailout, funnily enough. People are largely buying more efficent cars and spending far less on consumables (mostly because they don't have the disposable income they used to). Populations in Europe and N. America aren't rising by much (aside from immigration, I suppose, but even that is down).

    So where is this rise coming from? Emerging economies, presumably, China to the forefront of this. However, I'd not expect this rise to last. China is destroying its environment and has been suffering an extended drought. They're probably burning monetary reserves to keep growth going; apparently their municipalities had to be bailed out to the tune of hundreds of billions recently. Even with 2-3 trn in forex reserves, that may only last a few years at current oil prices; and what then? That's not factoring in inflation, either.

    I'd suspect another crash, and this time, I doubt the emerging economies will escape unscathed. That'll take emissions down. And there are no shortages for triggers for this event; European defaults, US defaults, you name it...

    Growth that is not based on the use of existing monetary reserves or the accumulation of debt isn't possible at 120 bucks per barrel and no alternative transport fuel. Period. People used to argue with that, but once it became clear that growth between 2003 and 2007 was merely down to higher debt, I'm not sure they do any longer.

    So emissions will be down, I'd say, very shortly. I thoroughly approve of the transition towns movement, best of luck to it!

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    The rise in carbon emissions surprises me, tbh, since all around me, I'd see people using less, both here and in the UK. Anecdotally, similar initiatives are occurring in the US and Canada too....Government Motors has actually been rolling out much more efficient engines since the bailout, funnily enough. People are largely buying more efficent cars and spending far less on consumables (mostly because they don't have the disposable income they used to). Populations in Europe and N. America aren't rising by much (aside from immigration, I suppose, but even that is down).

    So where is this rise coming from? Emerging economies, presumably, China to the forefront of this. However, I'd not expect this rise to last. China is destroying its environment and has been suffering an extended drought. They're probably burning monetary reserves to keep growth going; apparently their municipalities had to be bailed out to the tune of hundreds of billions recently. Even with 2-3 trn in forex reserves, that may only last a few years at current oil prices; and what then? That's not factoring in inflation, either.

    I'd suspect another crash, and this time, I doubt the emerging economies will escape unscathed. That'll take emissions down. And there are no shortages for triggers for this event; European defaults, US defaults, you name it...

    Growth that is not based on the use of existing monetary reserves or the accumulation of debt isn't possible at 120 bucks per barrel and no alternative transport fuel. Period. People used to argue with that, but once it became clear that growth between 2003 and 2007 was merely down to higher debt, I'm not sure they do any longer.

    So emissions will be down, I'd say, very shortly. I thoroughly approve of the transition towns movement, best of luck to it!
    I think that in addition to the huge growth in demand in developing countries, another reason emissions continue to rise is that the embedded CO2 within oil is growing - the US in particular is increasingly dependent on Canadian oil sands, which require an enormous amount of energy to refine. The loss of Libyan crude (exceptionally high quality) may also have an effect - the world is increasingly using hard to process heavy crudes.

    Its terrible to say it, because it means a huge human cost, but a major financial crash in China (which is very likely) is the only thing that is likely to cut down on the growth in CO2. Although even this may be a double edged sword, as a poorer China will be more likely to fall back on older coal technology. We are also likely to see growth in CO2 from Japan as they try to get more energy quickly to make up for the loss of nuclear.

    Disturbingly, the rise in oil price doesn't seem to be having much of an impact on consumption. It seems we are so addicted to oil that people cut expenditures in other purchases in order to keep their cars filled.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    @ yojimbo.. @ motrticia

    thats an interesting point regarding crude oil quality. By coincidence I was just watching keisers peaked documentary in which he likened Saudi export policy to that of the french wine( keeping the good stuff and exporting gut rot)industry. Also They are building nuclear plants

    http://en.rian.ru/world/20110601/164367580.html


    Another guest(sorry cant remember his name) claimed that depending on who's figures you believe...it seems some people are under the impression that oil is in infinite supply whereas others claimed just keep up current usage rates until 2030 would require a new saudi arabia being found every 4 years...that reminded me somewhat of Prof Bartletts bacterium in a bottle thought experiment.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skrimshander View Post
    @ yojimbo.. @ motrticia

    thats an interesting point regarding crude oil quality. By coincidence I was just watching keisers peaked documentary in which he likened Saudi export policy to that of the french wine( keeping the good stuff and exporting gut rot)industry. Also They are building nuclear plants

    http://en.rian.ru/world/20110601/164367580.html


    Another guest(sorry cant remember his name) claimed that depending on who's figures you believe...it seems some people are under the impression that oil is in infinite supply whereas others claimed just keep up current usage rates until 2030 would require a new saudi arabia being found every 4 years...that reminded me somewhat of Prof Bartletts bacterium in a bottle thought experiment.
    www.theoildrum.com is a brilliant resource on oil facts and figures. One issue its been raising is that a huge increase in domestic oil use in Saudi Arabia is chipping away at their ability to raise exports.

    In reality, it now seems accepted that oil peaked in 2005-2007, despite very high prices since then, the industry has not been able to boost production. Tar Sands production has just allowed Canada to replace conventional oil, not increase production. Its all downhill from here - the only question is how sharp the downturn will be.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yojimbo View Post
    www.theoildrum.com Tar Sands production has just allowed Canada to replace conventional oil, not increase production. Its all downhill from here - the only question is how sharp the downturn will be.
    Yep... they need 10-12 barrels of water for every barrel of oil they produce, and there's only one N. Saskatchewan river.....Mind you, the oil sands will last them hundreds of years....

    And yes, when China goes pop (Prof Roubini has just given 'em till 2013 until a hard landing...), I'd expect emissions, and oil prices, to plummet temporarily. The next price spike will depend on how quick the production decline is. And none of us know, or can predict that one. Trite comments about the world having 40 odd years of oil left at current consumption levels are actively VERY misleading, mostly because they won't be able to pump it all at once. It is probably more accurate to say that we have 100 years left, but by 2030, we'll be pumping the amounts the planet used in the 1970s...much, much less.

    And that means economic chaos. But re warming.....maybe don't pencil in armageddon just yet?

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    RAMP In Ruins: No Monitoring Of Aquatic Impact Of Tar Sands - Edmonton Journal

    Fracking Hell: The Untold Story

    My Water's On Fire Tonight (The Fracking Song)

    Want more about the desperate tries of the petroleum industry to keep up with demands?

    Still think humans don't cause global warming?


  15. #45
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by New Vision View Post
    Still think humans don't cause global warming
    Yes.

    Just have a look at your thermometer.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

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