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Thread: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

  1. #1
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    Default Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Interesting little piece I stumbled upon...

    Ian Rutherford Plimer (born 12 February 1946) is an Australian geologist,
    academic and businessman, and professor of mining geology at the University
    of Adelaide . You will appreciate his take on climate change
    (aka: global warming).

    Professor Ian Plimer could not have said it better! If you've read his book
    you will agree, this is a good summary.


    Okay, here's the bombshell. The volcanic eruption in Iceland , since its
    first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY SINGLE
    EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2 emissions on our
    planet - all of you.

    Of course you know about this evil carbon dioxide that we are trying to
    suppress - it's that vital chemical compound that every plant requires to
    live and grow, and to synthesize into oxygen for us humans, and all animal
    life.

    I know, it's very disheartening to realize that all of the carbon emission
    savings you have accomplished while suffering the inconvenience and expense
    of: driving Prius hybrids, buying fabric grocery bags, sitting up till
    midnight to finish your kid's "The Green Revolution" science project,
    throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using only two squares
    of toilet paper, putting a brick in your toilet tank reservoir, selling your
    SUV and speedboat, vacationing at home instead of abroad, nearly getting hit
    every day on your bicycle, replacing all of your 50 cents light bulbs with
    $10.00 light bulbs . .. . well, all of those things you have done have all
    gone down the tubes in just four days.

    The volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmosphere in just four days - yes
    - FOUR DAYS ONLY by that volcano in Iceland , has totally erased every single
    effort you have made to reduce the evil beast, carbon. And there are around
    200 active volcanoes on the planet spewing out this crud any one time -
    EVERY DAY.

    I don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention
    that when the volcano Mt Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it
    spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human
    race had emitted in its entire YEARS on earth. Yes folks, Mt Pinatubo was
    active for over one year - think about it.

    Of course I shouldn't spoil this touchy-feelly tree-hugging moment and
    mention the effect of solar and cosmic activity and the well-recognized
    800-year global heating and cooling cycle, which keep happening, despite our
    completely insignificant efforts to affect climate change.

    And I do wish I had a silver lining to this volcanic ash cloud but the fact
    of the matter is that the bush fire season across the western USA and
    Australia this year alone will negate your efforts to reduce carbon in our
    world for the next two to three years. And it happens every year.

    Just remember that your government just tried to impose a whopping carbon
    tax on you on the basis of the bogus "human-caused" climate change scenario.

    Hey, isn't it interesting how they don't mention "Global Warming" any more,
    but just "Climate Change" - you know why? It's because the planet has COOLED
    by 0.7 degrees in the past century and these global warming bull artists got
    caught with their pants down.

    And just keep in mind that you might yet have an Emissions Trading Scheme -
    that whopping new tax - imposed on you, that will achieve absolutely nothing
    except make you poorer. It won't stop any volcanoes from erupting, that's
    for sure.

    But hey, relax, give the world a hug and have a nice day!

    PS: I wonder if Iceland is buying carbon offsets?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    I'll wait with interest for the kind of informed reply to this that I can't give.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I'll wait with interest for the kind of informed reply to this that I can't give.
    Well Cactus I thought it was worth throwing it out there for some hopefully informed replies.. I am sure there will be some interesting opinions informed or not..

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Climate Change Denial is a dangerous psycholigical condition, the good professor should be institutionalised!
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    Climate Change Denial is a dangerous psycholigical condition, the good professor should be institutionalised!
    I remain neutral on this one TM... there are plenty of "dangerous psycholigical conditions" effecting our esteemed governments of past, present, and sadly the future..

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    My living room faces north and needs heating even in summer. If only this global warming thing could hurry itself up then I could save on my Bord Gais bills.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Oh dear, here we go again.

    Ian Pilmers 'work' has been comprehensively analysed and debunked by proper scientists again and again over the years, but he seems to have found a little niche among people who don't understand or don't want to understand science.

    His book was analysed in detail here:

    http://bravenewclimate.files.wordpre.../plimer2a0.pdf

    His comments on the recent volcano were dealt with in great detail by volcanologists when he last made them in 2009, but it seems that having it pointed out that your figures are grotesquely wrong doesn't make a difference to him. I could find all of the proper responses, but google should do the job for anyone willing to chase up. Its all just too boring.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Ehhh...not my figures..!

    I am not a scientist so I remain neutral, and I still buy incandesent light bulbs..

    I remember there were lots of so called experts banging the table about Y2K..

    Who knows what way this climate change argument will go.. jury's out in my opinion

    I read somewhere air and sea transport are big contributors to so called climate change..? not the poor soul using old light bulbs..

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by eskerman View Post
    jury's out in my opinion
    There will be no jury, "saving the planet" has become a multi-billion dollar industry. Or, as they say, "time for debate is over". You hear me? OVER!
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    There will be no jury, "saving the planet" has become a multi-billion dollar industry. Or, as they say, "time for debate is over". You hear me? OVER!
    Of course climate change is now a multi-billion $ industry, as was Y2K as is Pharma industry, global giants pulling strings of puppet governments across the globe.

    If I had choice, I would live in the cabin in the middle of nowhere.. live simple.. ( will I need my laptop and sat link to the outside world ? no forget it.. we are in media overload which is another multi-billion dollar industry, less is more I think..

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    First, let's take a look who Ian Rutherford Plimer is and what kind of a background he has. SourceWatch publishes this here about him:

    Conflict of interest

    Plimer is a director of four mining companies: Ivanhoe Australia, a subsidiary of Bob Friedland's Ivanhoe Mines,[4][5] CBH Resources,[5] Kefi Minerals,[6][7] and Australia-based coal gas company, Ormil Energy.[8] As part of his employment agreement with Ivanhoe, Plimer can forgo annual directors fees of $65,000 in return for a total of 100,000 share options "for nil consideration." The options are available in four installments on September 1 each year from 2008 through to 2011, subject to Plimer continuing in employment with the company.[9] (Ivanhoe Australia, which has an interest in uranium exploration, stated in its 2008 prospectus that "one of the arguments for nuclear energy is its substantially reduced level of carbon emissions".)[10] Plimer is also non-executive Director and Deputy Chairman of Kefi. He has 3.6 million shares in Kefi which, at the July 2010 value of 8 to 95 British pence each, would be worth between £288k and £3.42M.[11][12][13] CBH Resources paid him $A125,000 in 2009 and $A181,003 in 2008. As of June 2009, Plimer had options on 3,569,633 CBH Resources shares.[14] At the early November 2009 share price of .10, Plimer's options would be worth approximately $A356,963.. However, CBH's annual report does not list details of what price, if any, the options would be available at or when they would have to be exercised by.

    Plimer claims that his mining company directorships have no impact on his beliefs,[5] even though he has extensive financial interests in mining companies that would be negatively affected by any limits placed on carbon emissions. Plimer himself has argued that the proposed Australian carbon-trading scheme could decimate the Australian mining industry,[15] and "probably destroy it totally",[16] as well as creating "massive unemployment".[16]

    Political affiliations

    Plimer is listed as an associate of the Institute of Public Affairs,[17][18] a conservative think tank with close ties to the Liberal Party of Australia.[19] In 2007, Plimer was listed as an "allied expert" for the Natural Resources Stewardship Project, a Canadian anti-Kyoto Protocol advocacy group.[20] In November 2009, Plimer was named as a member of the academic advisory council for Nigel Lawson's global warming skeptic group, the Global Warming Policy Foundation.[21]

    He is also a member of the Australian Skeptics.[22]

    Background

    A biographical note on the Ivanhoe Australia website states that Plimer "has previously been on the staff of North Broken Hill Ltd, and is a prominent Australian geologist who has spent most of his industry, consulting and scientific life working on base metal deposits, particularly in Broken Hill, epithermal gold deposits, especially in the Mediterranean, and tungsten-tin-molybdenum deposits. He has predicted and discovered a number of epithermal gold deposits in the Mediterranean."[4]

    Book: Heaven and Earth

    Plimer's denialist book on global warming was published in 2009 and sold about 20,000 copies in Australia and a similar amount in the USA. The book was universally panned by scientists as full of errors and even accused of plagiarism.[23]

    List of errors

    Ian Enting compiled "the definitive list of errors" for the book.[24]

    Political influence

    Plimer was cited by the leader of the Australian Liberal Party, Tony Abbott,[25] in dismissing the IPCC and its findings:

    "I think that in response to the IPCC alarmist - in inverted commas - view, there've been quite a lot of other reputable scientific voices. Now not everyone agrees with Ian Plimer's position, but he is a highly credible scientist and he has written what seems like a very well-argued book refuting most of the claims of the climate catastrophists."

    Abbott's views on global warming and carbon trading were subsequently described by the man he unseated for the position of leader, Malcolm Turnbull, as "bullshit".[26]

    Debate with George Monbiot

    After the publication of his book met with harsh criticism from The Guardian's George Monbiot, who derided the book, saying that "Since its publication in Australia it has been ridiculed for a hilarious series of schoolboy errors, and its fudging and manipulation of the data",[27] Plimer challenged Monbiot to a public debate on the issues covered in the book. Monbiot responded by insisting that Plimer, who is known for his "Gish Gallop"[28] approach to debates (a rapid-fire presentation of arguments and changing topics very quickly),[29] first answer a series of written questions for publication on the Guardian's website.[30] Plimer refused and Monbiot labeled Plimer a "grandstander" with a "broad yellow streak" who has never answered the accusations of serious errors in his Heaven and Earth book, and accused him of trying to "drown out the precise refutations published by his book's reviewers".[31] Plimer then reversed his decision, and agreed to answer written questions in return for a live debate.[32] However, instead of the expected answers, he sent a series of questions to Monbiot.[33][34][35] Negotiations with Plimer for a face-to-face debate eventually broke down and no debate was held.[36][37]

    The two did eventually cross swords on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation program Lateline in December, 2009.[38] After the debate, Monbiot published an article in The Guardian summarising the debate and stated that Plimer had been "soundly thrashed".[39] The video shows Plimer obfuscating, refusing to answer questions, and clearly discomforted when his erroneous scientific statements about global warming were directly challenged.

    Peter Jackson of the Canadian paper, The Telegram, summarised the debate so: "For Plimer, it was an unmitigated disaster. He fudged and distracted at every turn like a senile old goat. In the end, he refused to answer a single question put to him by Monbiot or the moderator. His credibility - and that of his book - withered away into oblivion."[40]

    Weather theories

    Plimer holds some unusual views on a variety of weather-related topics. He believes that El Niño is caused by earthquakes and volcanic activity at the mid-ocean ridges.[41] This contrasts with the view held by the meteorological and oceanographic communities, which is that El Niño arises from dynamical interactions between the atmosphere and ocean.[42] Plimer told Radio Australia that Pacific island nations are seeing changes in sea level not because of global warming, but due to "vibration consolidating the coral island sands", extraction of water, and extraction of sand for road and air strip making.[43]

    Volcanoes and CO2

    Plimer's central thesis[44] is that volcanoes emit more carbon dioxide (CO2) than humans. Plimer claims that submarine volcanoes, in particular, emit huge amounts of CO2 and that the influence of the gasses from these volcanoes on the earth's climate is drastically underrepresented in climate models.[45]

    George Monbiot[46] and The Guardian columnist James Randerson[47] dispute Plimer's argument, stating that humans emit 130 times more CO2 than volcanoes based on calculations made by the U.S. Geological Survey.[48] During a debate between Plimer and Monbiot on Australian television,[49] Plimer stated that the USGS had failed to take into account the CO2 emitted by submarine volcanoes. The host responded that a UK journalist had in fact gone back to the USGS and asked it whether or not submarine volcanoes were included in its calculations, and the USGS said that they were. Plimer responded that there are many huge undersea volcanoes which are not known about or measured.[46][50]

    Climate scientists Gavin Schmidt of NASA and Barry Brook[51] of the University of Adelaide also dispute Plimer's position on this issue,[52] as does lead IPCC author David Karoly.[53] Karoly points out that Plimer is completely wrong on this issue, saying that:

    1. The net movement of carbon dioxide is from the atmosphere to the ocean, based on measurements that the concentration of dissolved carbon dioxide in the ocean is less than in the atmosphere. So the ocean (and its volcanoes) cannot be a nett source of CO2;
    2. In addition, measurements show that the concentrations of two other long-lived greenhouse gases with human-related sources, methane and nitrous oxide, have increased markedly over the last 200 years, at the same time as the increases in carbon dioxide. This is not possible due to sources from underwater volcanoes.


    The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has stated that Plimer's statement "has no factual basis" since "Volcanoes are only responsible for a couple of hundred megatons per year of CO2 —a couple of orders of magnitude smaller than human emissions— and are balanced by deep ocean burial", and because volcanoes produce 200 million tons of CO2 a year compared with 600 million tons from U.S. passenger cars alone.[54][55]

    Climate scientist Brook finds it "rather strange" that Plimer argues for volcanoes as the cause of rising CO2, after trying to convince his audience that CO2 is an unimportant trace gas and doesn’t change climate anyway.[51]

    On a 60 Minutes chat in 2006, Plimer stated that "volcanoes that leak out carbon dioxide have caused global warming in the past",[56] a statement that starkly contrasts with his later claims that CO2 levels have no effect on climate.

    Copenhagen Climate Challenge 2009

    During the United Nations Climate Change Conference 2009 (COP15), Plimer spoke at a rival conference in Copenhagen called the Copenhagen Climate Challenge,[57] which was organised by an Exxon-funded lobby group called Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow.[58][59] While COP15 attracted 33,200 delegates, the rival sceptic conference was attended by 60 people (15 journalists, 18 speakers, 27 audience).[57] According to Lenore Taylor of The Australian, the attendees had an average age "well over 60".[60] In closing his speech, Plimer stated that “They’ve got us outnumbered, but we’ve got them outgunned, and that’s with the truth.”[57] Plimer also stated that "It's been freezing in Perth and bucketing down". In fact, Perth (Western Australia) had below average rainfall in 2009, and, as Plimer spoke, temperatures in Perth reached 38°C (100°F).[61]

    Battle with creationists

    Plimer is an outspoken critic of creationism and wrote a book called Telling Lies for God: Reason vs Creationism. Creationists claim Plimer makes numerous scientific errors in this book.[62]

    In the late 1990s, Plimer engaged in a quixotic and ultimately self-defeating battle with creationists. He went to court alleging misleading and deceptive advertising under the Trade Practices Act 1974 against creationist minister Allen Roberts, arising from Plimer's attacks on Roberts' claims concerning the location of Noah's Ark. Leading up to this, Plimer was forcibly ejected by police from several public meetings at which Roberts spoke. The court ruled that although the minister had indeed made false and misleading claims, they were not made in the course of trade or commerce, so Plimer lost the case,[63] and was ordered to pay his own and Roberts' legal costs estimated at over AU$500,000.[64][65][66]

    Plimer's debating style has been criticised as counterproductive by some of his fellow skeptics. He was criticised for making false claims and errors in his debates with creationists by skeptic Jim Lippard.[67]
    As the OP doesn't cite any article let's see what the scientists are telling us. Do volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans?

    The solid Earth contains a huge quantity of carbon, far more than scientists estimate is present in the atmosphere or oceans. As an important part of the global carbon cycle, some of this carbon is slowly released from the rocks in the form of carbon dioxide, through vents at volcanoes and hot springs. Published reviews of the scientific literature by Moerner and Etiope (2002) and Kerrick (2001) report a minimum-maximum range of emission of 65 to 319 million tonnes of CO2 per year. Counter claims that volcanoes, especially submarine volcanoes, produce vastly greater amounts of CO2 than these estimates are not supported by any papers published by the scientists who study the subject.

    The burning of fossil fuels and changes in land use results in the emission into the atmosphere of approximately 30 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year worldwide, according to the EIA. The fossil fuels emissions numbers are about 100 times bigger than even the maximum estimated volcanic CO2 fluxes. Our understanding of volcanic discharges would have to be shown to be very mistaken before volcanic CO2 discharges could be considered anything but a bit player in contributing to the recent changes observed in the concentration of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere.
    Volcanoes have always existed and they cannot explain the rapid global warming in the last century, but manmade CO2 can.







    Last edited by New Vision; 06-06-2011 at 01:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by New Vision View Post
    First, let's take a look who Ian Rutherford Plimer is and what kind of a background he has. SourceWatch publishes this here about him:



    As the OP doesn't cite any article let's see what the scientists are telling us. Do volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans?



    Volcanoes have always existed and they cannot explain the rapid global warming in the last century, but manmade CO2 can.







    Lots of data and thanks for your contribution. It puts a lot of the argument to bed, or it throws plenty of collective date to back it up at least.

    My original post was an extract from an article i read.. it was not my own opinion.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Quote Originally Posted by eskerman View Post
    Lots of data and thanks for your contribution. It puts a lot of the argument to bed, or it throws plenty of collective date to back it up at least.

    My original post was an extract from an article i read.. it was not my own opinion.
    Glad if I could make things clear.

    Maybe you put a reference link to such posts in the future.

    Cheers.

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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    If you're interested in climate change and want to know more about how "deniers" are trying to mislead us subscribe to the Climate Denial Crock of the Week from Peter Sinclair.

    Here a video clip published on his YouTube channel dealing also with the impact of CO2 due to volcanoe eruptions:

    Sense from Deniers on CO2? Don't hold your breath....

    (A pity that you can't embed videos in this forum, can you?)
    Last edited by New Vision; 06-06-2011 at 03:24 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Global Warming----Climate Change.. !!

    Many climate scientists and also the Climate Science Rapid Response Team recommend the website, SkepticalScience.com, when it comes to questions about Anthropogenic (man-made) Global Warming (AGW) and Climate Change. It often explains in two ways (basic and intermediate) the issues involved in the subject. You can also subscribe to their newsletter.

    Keep in mind that the link between increased Greenhouse Gases (GHGs) and today's climate change is extremely strong.

    If increases in CO2 are not causing modern day global warming then two things must be true:

    1. Something unknown is suppressing the well-understood greenhouse effect (and doing so during massive increases in GHGs).
    2. Something unknown is causing the warming that mirrors the greenhouse effect.


    So we can accept what we know to be true (AGW) or we accept two unknowns. (Powell, 2010)
    Last edited by New Vision; 06-06-2011 at 03:13 PM.

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