"Women inferior to men" - Government. Update: Bill passed by Dáil

[Dr. FIVE]

Maybe we could knock the hyperbole lever off full boost.

Knew it as I was typing but this is what you drive me to Baron

[Baron von Biffo]

Knew it as I was typing but this is what you drive me to Baron

The man always gets the blame

[C. Flower]

Voluntary quotas is people doing what they want and that's great in a free democratic society. Legally mandated quotas are an assault on democracy and should be intolerable in a free society..

Parliamentary democracy is a form of voluntarism, whether we like the outcome or not, we have agreed to the process. You have ceded the decision to elected reps and Greengoddess tells us that in between elections, even party members are de nada.

We are less than nothing

[Baron von Biffo]

For people with ability, gender is not an obstacle to success.

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-3251195.html

For the rest there's quotas.

[Dr. FIVE]

Phil Hogan outlining plans to Mayors & Council Chairs today

[Baron von Biffo]

Phil Hogan outlining plans to Mayors & Council Chairs today

Fitting that he should announce it on the same day as he announced his other measures to erode democracy.

[Dr. FIVE]

Sorry Baron, should have made that clearer. Thought it was striking enough
This is the Minister announcing local government reform to an audience with a ratio of over four men for every women.

[Baron von Biffo]

Sorry Baron, should have made that clearer. Thought it was striking enough
This is the Minister announcing local government reform to an audience with a ratio of over four men for every women.

Looks to me to be about 80 people in the audience of whom about 19 seem to be women. That's 25% - very close to the 30% minimum parties must run to avoid financial punishment.

If we could look at a similar event in 5 years time we must assume that the percentage of women would be lower. Hogan plans to have fewer councillors and the premise of the quota legislation is that women aren't as capable of succeeding on their merits so inevitably they will suffer most from a reduction.

[Baron von Biffo]

Sorry Baron, should have made that clearer. Thought it was striking enough
This is the Minister announcing local government reform to an audience with a ratio of over four men for every women.

Another observation on that pic - No black person, no-one obviously disabled and I'd be very surprised if there was a traveller in there.

[Dr. FIVE]

Any of those groups make up fifty percent* of the population Baron or do you just want to go back over the most tried of all arguments from page two to demonstrate your ignorance on the issue?

*(Woman actually a majority now [2011] at 981 males for every 1,000 females.)

[Baron von Biffo]

Any of those groups make up fifty percent* of the population Baron or do you just want to go back over the most tried of all arguments from page two to demonstrate your ignorance on the issue?

*(Woman actually a majority now [2011] at 981 males for every 1,000 females.)

The only thing stopping me from advocating an ignorance quota in GEs is a fear of being accused of blatant self interest.

Feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong but no-one is claiming that women are inherently more capable than men of being good politicians. Neither is it being argued, so far as I can see, that we would have better or more prudent government if we had as many women as men TDs.

The only case being made appears to be that women make up 50% of the population therefore they should make up 50% of the Dail.

If that's true then why isn't there a case for every other segment of the population similarly entitled to pro rata inclusion in the Dail?

[Baron von Biffo]

One wonders is this legislation going to be challenged in the courts, perhaps along the lines of being unconstitutional ... the antis saying this does not hold citizens equally and the pros saying the State can legislate thus having due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function

Article 40

1. All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.

I'm reading Gerard Hogan's The Origins of the Irish Constitution 1928 - 1941 at the moment and in it he quotes a comment on that article by Chief Justice Liam Hamilton in Re Article 26 and the Employment Equality Bill 1996 which brought this post to mind:-

"The forms of discrimination which are, presumptively at least, prescribed by Article 40, s. 1 are not particularised: manifestly, they would extend to classifications based on sex, race, language, religious or political opinions."

That would at least give a strong suggestion that the Quota Act is unconstitutional.

Further grounds for challenge may lie in Article 16.1.3 which says :-

"No law shall be enacted placing any citizen under disability or incapacity for membership of Dáil Éireann on the ground of sex or disqualifying any citizen or other person from voting at an election for members of Dáil Éireann on that ground." (My emphasis).

Ironically the inclusion of the emphasised words came about following pressure from women's groups.

There's also an arguable case against it under Article 40.6.1.i which guarantees inter alia:-

"The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions."

[Dr. FIVE]

Goodluck to whichever defender of democracy brings that one to court

[Baron von Biffo]

Goodluck to whichever defender of democracy brings that one to court

Sadly it would require a great deal of courage, at least for a man, to mount a challenge. He would undoubtedly be pilloried and his motives impugned. But then we wouldn't have our democracy or our constitution were it not for courageous people.

Who knows, maybe there's a woman of principle out there who values democracy more than tokenism enough to take a stand.

[Dr. FIVE]

Think the other babies in Dáil Éireann would be put out?