Welcome to Occupied Ireland!

[PaddyJoe]

Gene Kerrigan gets it bang on in today's Indo:

Welcome to Occupied Ireland. We haven't been invaded, there was no siege, but after last Thursday I trust the governing arrangements are crystal clear?
In recent weeks it wasn't just the banks that were stress tested -- the robustness of our democratic structures were assessed. And we saw the result. We are free to vote for a government, but it's a puppet government, a Vichy regime.
The power lies with a handful of unelected EU mandarins, and the proconsuls they appoint to look after the details. The policies imposed on the late unlamented Biffo administration will continue -- protect the bondholders, protect the euro, try to make up the difference by cutting services, wages and jobs. The jargon we must use to describe our rulers has been specified: "Our External Partners".

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...e-2607419.html

[C. Flower]

[QUOTE]
Muhamed El-Erian is the CEO of Pimco, one of the world's biggest bond investors. Connected to Oxford, Cambridge and Harvard, he served 15 years with the IMF and wrote a prizewinning book on economics. More relevant, he oversees investment strategies involving trillions of dollars. In short, he's no Joe Higgins.

Last week, El-Erian told Bloomberg: "The only people doing their fair share right now -- in fact I would say they're doing more than their fair share -- are the taxpayers of Ireland who are having to go through a tremendous austerity, and the IMF and the EU that are putting in money. Most of the creditors so far have not gone through any burden sharing. It is remarkable. It is inadvisable. It is a political decision that has been taken. It surprises me. I do not think you can sustain that political decision."

In the same interview, El-Erian warned of how inequality engenders social unrest. He's no radical, he believes the current policies of protecting the rich while ******** the citizens will lead to destabilised societies. And that's bad for his business.

Another Pimco executive, Andrew Bosomworth, was quoted in the Irish Independent on Thursday. "Ireland is closing kindergartens to pay senior bondholders -- ethically that is a very questionable policy." The ethics of our government and Our External Partners are being questioned by some of the most aggressive capitalists on the planet.

Our leaders are constitutionally obliged to hold a referendum to seek permission for any substantial change in the treaties governing our relationship with Our External Partners. That relationship has now, without consulting the people, become one of master and servant. A vote for change meant nothing. The Oireachtas has been blatantly sidelined. Ethics don't count for much these days, but if democracy means anything there's an irrefutable case for a referendum on the package imposed without mandate on the citizens.[/QUOTE]


The only person who attempted to refer this to the Courts was someone from the Pensioners Party, who had no legal representation.

I tweeted far and wide for a Constitutional lawyer who would advise, to no effect.

Time to try again maybe.

[Apjp]

[quote=C. Flower;135277]

Muhamed El-Erian is the CEO of Pimco, one of the world's biggest bond investors. Connected to Oxford, Cambridge and Harvard, he served 15 years with the IMF and wrote a prizewinning book on economics. More relevant, he oversees investment strategies involving trillions of dollars. In short, he's no Joe Higgins.

Last week, El-Erian told Bloomberg: "The only people doing their fair share right now -- in fact I would say they're doing more than their fair share -- are the taxpayers of Ireland who are having to go through a tremendous austerity, and the IMF and the EU that are putting in money. Most of the creditors so far have not gone through any burden sharing. It is remarkable. It is inadvisable. It is a political decision that has been taken. It surprises me. I do not think you can sustain that political decision."

In the same interview, El-Erian warned of how inequality engenders social unrest. He's no radical, he believes the current policies of protecting the rich while ******** the citizens will lead to destabilised societies. And that's bad for his business.

Another Pimco executive, Andrew Bosomworth, was quoted in the Irish Independent on Thursday. "Ireland is closing kindergartens to pay senior bondholders -- ethically that is a very questionable policy." The ethics of our government and Our External Partners are being questioned by some of the most aggressive capitalists on the planet.

Our leaders are constitutionally obliged to hold a referendum to seek permission for any substantial change in the treaties governing our relationship with Our External Partners. That relationship has now, without consulting the people, become one of master and servant. A vote for change meant nothing. The Oireachtas has been blatantly sidelined. Ethics don't count for much these days, but if democracy means anything there's an irrefutable case for a referendum on the package imposed without mandate on the citizens.[/QUOTE]


The only person who attempted to refer this to the Courts was someone from the Pensioners Party, who had no legal representation.

I tweeted far and wide for a Constitutional lawyer who would advise, to no effect.

Time to try again maybe.

My law lecturer is a soft left keynesian. I must ask her after class this week if i think of it. I'll try and remember and let ye know when i do!

[Sam Lord]

I have been thinking about your situation in Ireland since the results of the latest "Stress tests" and wondering what could possibly be a way forward.

You have had your election but the new government seems pretty much like the old government so nothing of benefit to the ordinary people can be expected there .... which means that it is up to the ordinary people to look after their own interests. But what needs to be done and how can this be accomplished?

It seems to me that the immediate priority is for the country to default. The difficult question is what can be done to force this?

In this regard I was wondering if a mortgage payment strike might be one tactic that might put pressure on the powers that be? Should people across the country be organised into a "Can't Pay - Won't Pay" campaign? After all enough of their money is going into the banks already. It seems to me that there could be substantial support for this but would it be worthwhile organising? How useful would it be in bringing pressure to bear?

Any views?

[matt]

I have been thinking about your situation in Ireland since the results of the latest "Stress tests" and wondering what could possibly be a way forward.

You have had your election but the new government seems pretty much like the old government so nothing of benefit to the ordinary people can be expected there .... which means that it is up to the ordinary people to look after their own interests. But what needs to be done and how can this be accomplished?

It seems to me that the immediate priority is for the country to default. The difficult question is what can be done to force this?

In this regard I was wondering if a mortgage payment strike might be one tactic that might put pressure on the powers that be? Should people across the country be organised into a "Can't Pay - Won't Pay" campaign? After all enough of their money is going into the banks already. It seems to me that there could be substantial support for this but would it be worthwhile organising? How useful would it be in bringing pressure to bear?

Any views?

I think this would be a great idea - I think it's been suggested here before here, but the imperative has grown substantially.

The above remarks seem to understant something that none of us can doubt - that action has to come from the people; enough of the phoney 'negotiations' with Noonan/Kenny and the EU.

We might consider the prospects that might be faced for people who get involved - remember the jailings for the bin charges, incl. Joe Higgins ?

Another thing that should be considered is the imminent census.

Were questions about the no. of rooms in homes incuded in earlier ones ?
If not, it might be probable that it is to be used as a basis for the Property Tax - and as such, should be opposed through non-compliance.

[morticia]

I think this would be a great idea - I think it's been suggested here before here, but the imperative has grown substantially.

I suggested it a few weeks back, but half-heartedly; I don't yet think most people feel stressed enough to risk it.

However, give it a few ECB rate rises and we'll see

I think there's massive group think in Brussels. The SBP interviewed Catherine Day (most senior EU Irish civil servant in Brussels apparently), and she seems to think that it was all our banks' fault they'd signed up for the money and that we deserved what we were getting.

I re-iterate that the only differences between us and the US/UK on the property bubble front is that they can print enough dosh to get out of jail free, and devalue. The only other difference is that the UK has a property shortage, meaning the bubble hasn't really deflated despite the bank issues (downside, will keep wages higher than they should be). Notably, many of the default proponents, like El-Erian, probably realize this as they work in the Anglozone (or, in the case of Deutsche Bank etc, do enough work in the Anglozone that they'd get the mindset). Therefore, they think we're being unfairly treated. The Anglozone as a whole has an obsession with property ownership, and almost see it as a human right. The Europeans tend to see rental as the norm unless you're totally sure you can cover your debts. Hence the mentality we're dealing with from Europe.

Am beginning to question monetary union advisability with people who are so culturally different in this respect.

[Apjp]

I suggested it a few weeks back, but half-heartedly; I don't yet think most people feel stressed enough to risk it.

However, give it a few ECB rate rises and we'll see

I think there's massive group think in Brussels. The SBP interviewed Catherine Day (most senior EU Irish civil servant in Brussels apparently), and she seems to think that it was all our banks' fault they'd signed up for the money and that we deserved what we were getting.

I re-iterate that the only differences between us and the US/UK on the property bubble front is that they can print enough dosh to get out of jail free, and devalue. The only other difference is that the UK has a property shortage, meaning the bubble hasn't really deflated despite the bank issues (downside, will keep wages higher than they should be). Notably, many of the default proponents, like El-Erian, probably realize this as they work in the Anglozone (or, in the case of Deutsche Bank etc, do enough work in the Anglozone that they'd get the mindset). Therefore, they think we're being unfairly treated. The Anglozone as a whole has an obsession with property ownership, and almost see it as a human right. The Europeans tend to see rental as the norm unless you're totally sure you can cover your debts. Hence the mentality we're dealing with from Europe.

Am beginning to question monetary union advisability with people who are so culturally different in this respect.

Just two issues id like to ask ye: 1. if we print money we could end up like zimbabwe. and we all know what that means. back to barter. the inflation costs both domestically and on imports would be ginormous. if we just devalue then the effect is lesser-although oil prices will hit us anyways. so please address this question which i have asked ye a few times now M. why not just devalue? How does funny money save the day if theres no output behind the extra printed paper? Its like monopoly money in that case. But if ye just devalue, yer currency stays relative to yer output and yer PPP(buying power) isnt harmed so much!

2. the reason monetary union doesnt work is because we have different economies adapting the same policies. Theres no reason why, say, Ireland, Iceland, Portugal, Denmark, Cyprus, Malta, Britain, Finland, and some baltic periphery states of small proportion and similar strategic locations like latvia couldnt all join. oh and greece o' course. we are all periphery states with similar economies. even britain is quite like us. hence previous currency ties. From what ive learned, its about economies of scale and their geographical trading positions. All of the above satisfy at least one of these. Im quite in favour of multilateral default of the PIGS(not italy) and a new joint currency with any of the above states.

[Apjp]

I have been thinking about your situation in Ireland since the results of the latest "Stress tests" and wondering what could possibly be a way forward.

You have had your election but the new government seems pretty much like the old government so nothing of benefit to the ordinary people can be expected there .... which means that it is up to the ordinary people to look after their own interests. But what needs to be done and how can this be accomplished?

It seems to me that the immediate priority is for the country to default. The difficult question is what can be done to force this?

In this regard I was wondering if a mortgage payment strike might be one tactic that might put pressure on the powers that be? Should people across the country be organised into a "Can't Pay - Won't Pay" campaign? After all enough of their money is going into the banks already. It seems to me that there could be substantial support for this but would it be worthwhile organising? How useful would it be in bringing pressure to bear?

Any views?

I wish to reply to ye on a few points. Firstly the ULA keep talking about the mortgage resistance at every meeting they have in the gresham hotel. Im disappointed, from attending these meetings quite open to persuasion, that they havent done so. As a result Im officially unaligned but I protest on every major march with the ULA and I'll be attending the pro-referenda meeting and march this week. I'll again be asking why they are asking party members and attendees for money when they have all the public funding and are meeting in the gresham. Apparently theres only 10 euro left in the party account-to be fair cant have been easy financing all the election meetings since november but surely they dont have to meet in the bloody gresham and luxury hotels every bloody time? Id be interested to know what ANTI and the members think of that. Last time I didnt ask about it, I merely said in me question to them about detailed policy i dont know why ye're in the gresham if ye're broke. Which btw explains how they couldnt afford legal costs like SF for court cases. Although what that says about the fact sf havent done so says as much about them.

Anyways all that aside I agree with you on the strike. That could be the straw the camel needs. I would like to point out, in the spirit of common sense, that Brendan Keenan-a staunch capitalist economics editor for INM-said on Today FM this morning on Sam Smyth that although default wouldnt make our lives immediately better-the claims by the govt that it would worsen our lives considerably are greatly exaggerated. He said, we'd more or less be the same spending wise only without all the bank debt. So even he admitted default is now the least worst option. It also reminded me, if i may say it to ye sam, that me trade lecturer(a centrist Ricardian) said that 'in economics there is never the best choice, only the least worst choice. every choice has good and bad'. Its the best advice a capitalist ever gave me!

[Kev Bar]

I have been thinking about your situation in Ireland since the results of the latest "Stress tests" and wondering what could possibly be a way forward.

You have had your election but the new government seems pretty much like the old government so nothing of benefit to the ordinary people can be expected there .... which means that it is up to the ordinary people to look after their own interests. But what needs to be done and how can this be accomplished?

It seems to me that the immediate priority is for the country to default. The difficult question is what can be done to force this?

In this regard I was wondering if a mortgage payment strike might be one tactic that might put pressure on the powers that be? Should people across the country be organised into a "Can't Pay - Won't Pay" campaign? After all enough of their money is going into the banks already. It seems to me that there could be substantial support for this but would it be worthwhile organising? How useful would it be in bringing pressure to bear?

Any views?

It's worth looking into.

[C. Flower]

I have been thinking about your situation in Ireland since the results of the latest "Stress tests" and wondering what could possibly be a way forward.

You have had your election but the new government seems pretty much like the old government so nothing of benefit to the ordinary people can be expected there .... which means that it is up to the ordinary people to look after their own interests. But what needs to be done and how can this be accomplished?

It seems to me that the immediate priority is for the country to default. The difficult question is what can be done to force this?

In this regard I was wondering if a mortgage payment strike might be one tactic that might put pressure on the powers that be? Should people across the country be organised into a "Can't Pay - Won't Pay" campaign? After all enough of their money is going into the banks already. It seems to me that there could be substantial support for this but would it be worthwhile organising? How useful would it be in bringing pressure to bear?

Any views?

A lot of people already can't pay. When the next interest rate goes through next week and when more people lose their jobs and businesses with the next IMF/EU budget the numbers will increase. There are some organisations now that give support/mutual support to people defaulting on their mortgages and I think that this will continue to build up steam as the problem grows.

What might work is to set up a new co-op bank or similar, so people could pay into it instead of into their mortgage.

Boycotts have a danger that if support fades over time a number of people who hang in can be left in a serious position at the end of it.

By having the new bank, to collect the mortgage payments, they would be protected and also the foundation could be laid for a post-default banking system owned by the users.

The other reason for doing it this way is that mortgages are usually paid by direct debit. So most people in the boycott would need an alternative bank to put their cash in.

[Kev Bar]

A lot of people already can't pay. When the next interest rate goes through next week and when more people lose their jobs and businesses with the next IMF/EU budget the numbers will increase. There are some organisations now that give support/mutual support to people defaulting on their mortgages and I think that this will continue to build up steam as the problem grows.

What might work is to set up a new co-op bank or similar, so people could pay into it instead of into their mortgage.

Boycotts have a danger that if support fades over time a numbrr of people eho hang in can be left in a serious position at the end of it.

By having the new bank, to collect the mortgage payments, they would be protected and also the foundation could be laid for a post-default banking system owned by the users.

The other reason for doing it this way is that mortgages are usually paid by direct debit. So most people in the boycott would need an alternative bank to put their cash in.

A major task but a pre-requisite for the movement to be taken seriously by both the people it aims to defend and the institutions it aims to defend them from.
Also essential from a PR battle pov.

[Sam Lord]

By having the new bank, to collect the mortgage payments, they would be protected and also the foundation could be laid for a post-default banking system owned by the users.

Might as well start building the new society organically. Someone should go for it.

[Kev Bar]

Might as well start building the new society organically. Someone should go for it.

Bags the bonuses

[C. Flower]

Might as well start building the new society organically. Someone should go for it.

I discussed this with some Credit Union people towards the end of last year and they were very far from biting on it, although the Credit Unions would be well placed to step in. I got the feeling they had problems themselves.

But the Credit Union experience is valuable. There is also European "ethical banking" and I remember someone on Machine Nation trying hard to get some traction going on this three years ago.

On line banking would be the obvious way to go, as there's no requirement for buildings. But I wouldn't imagine that would come cheap or easy because of the regulatory and security requirements.

In Britain there is a Co-operative Bank which I assume was set up by Trade Unions originally, like the Co-op Stores.

It would need people with expertise to get involved, but with all the sackings coming up in the banking sector, that shouldn't be impossible to come by.

[Apjp]

I discussed this with some Credit Union people towards the end of last year and they were very far from biting on it, although the Credit Unions would be well placed to step in. I got the feeling they had problems themselves.

But the Credit Union experience is valuable. There is also European "ethical banking" and I remember someone on Machine Nation trying hard to get some traction going on this three years ago.

On line banking would be the obvious way to go, as there's no requirement for buildings. But I wouldn't imagine that would come cheap or easy because of the regulatory and security requirements.

In Britain there is a Co-operative Bank which I assume was set up by Trade Unions originally, like the Co-op Stores.

It would need people with expertise to get involved, but with all the sackings coming up in the banking sector, that shouldn't be impossible to come by.

Good ideas. Firstly depositors in credit unions like meself may end up taking a hit when we default and devalue. what we can do is put the punt, radically, at a 12th of a euro and this would mean that for all the euros we take in as reserves from peoples savings, as far as i know, could be used as security for the devalued notes handed back in punts. of course this means we would have to ban people from buying euro with their currency(legally difficult?) as that would mean enforced devaluations and noone wants that. thats effectively forcing yer currency out of trade-even socialists dont want that as currencies need to be traded, even by socialist countries, at present.

BTW National Irish bank produced a report a little while back CF. If we got rid o' checks and just used online banking and atms we'd save a billion a year in public costs. so yeah, im all in favour of NIB's system of online banking where possible. even if it only does away with some checks, thats a few hundred million off the public sector bill potentially.