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Thread: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

  1. #16
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Pierce Doherty was trying to claim Naughten. He tweeted the Naughten had "voted with SF".
    Sly divil
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  2. #17
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Pierce Doherty was trying to claim Naughten. He tweeted the Naughten had "voted with SF".
    Well, it was an SF motion.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    Sly divil
    Good opposition.

  4. #19
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    Default Maidir Le: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    + 8 as leader of FG
    0 as Taoiseach

    so far imo.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    A Fine Gael supporting independent, I suspect.
    To be welcomed back into the fold when the time is right.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Lol, nice one there from Doherty. That'll pee Naughten and his supporters off no-end. I'd say we'll see something like the Devins fiasco in Sligo, resign the whip, sulk as a govt. supporting independent for a couple of months before being readmitted to de party under the radar.
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  7. #22
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Griska View Post
    A Fine Gael supporting independent, I suspect.
    To be welcomed back into the fold when the time is right.

    I'm not so sure that this will be re-run of the FF game.

    8 Councillors are threatening resignation from FG too.

    We are living in a clientelist political culture, in which the funds for clientelism were all used up 100 years in advance by the last Government.

    Fine Gael is starting off at the very bad place at which FF left off.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    The Country should and must come first for politicians, we had enough of gombeens in last Dail, no lowrey or healyreas in this Dail please

  9. #24
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by culmore View Post
    The Country should and must come first for politicians, we had enough of gombeens in last Dail, no lowrey or healyreas in this Dail please
    Roscommon is part of the country. Ok so it's the wrong side of the M50 but still it's a bit rough to tell the people there to FOAD.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Roscommon is part of the country. Ok so it's the wrong side of the M50 but still it's a bit rough to tell the people there to FOAD.
    Well - I live in rural country Carlow - its a 1 hour trip to either Kilkenny,Waterford or Wexford to an A&E facility - 2 hours round trip if an ambulance has to collect me. Thats the breaks of living the rural life. I do not have a right to a bells and whistles hospital on my doorstep - the population isn't there and the people of Carlow have gone on living their lives without this facility -the mortality rate hasn;t gone thru the roof - Im sure the people of Roscommon will be able to do also.

    This is the end result of the populist blackmail that has passed for politics in this country for too long - if the people of Roscommon want A full A&E facility on their doorsteps - well they can pay for it themselves - are they prepared to pay a levy for the upgrading of the facility? - the same goes for all rural areas and services - for too long the urban dwellers of this country have subsidised the lifestyles of the rural in this country - its time that rural Ireland was asked to pay the full economic cost of choosing to live where they do - then we wouldn't have one of the most diffused and uneconomic housing patterns in the developed world and we would be able to afford to have world-class facilities a couple of hours from everybody instead of mediocre sh^te 20 minutes away from all.

    The county system is the bane of our country and the cause of a lot of our problems.

    Unfortunately the vast majority of the country outside Dublin tends to treat the election of TDs to the political equivalent of sending a GAA team to Croke Park - to do honour for the county and come away with the spoils of victory - normally getting one over dem boys in Dublin with "our minister" who will lavish largess on our county - sadly that is the way it has worked and the civil service have colluded in this populist nonsense for the most part aswell.

    this kind of thing is so deeply rooted in our political culture from the cabinet table right down to the town "councils" and VEC boards - that it will take a monumental effort to start to change this. it starts at parish level with councillors in collusion with the county manager and his staff deciding the road budgets for an area - each councillor gets to prioritize his promises to his favoured clients - thats why in many rural areas you will have important roads going to rack and ruin - yet you will see small country lanes leading to no more than one or two houses being lavishly resurfaced to a level out of all proportion for a mile or so - all at the expense of the taxpayer - clientalism is killing us -

    another example would be that our local ambitious Full-time labour councillor has proposed the building of a heated indoor swimming pool for the village - I live in Borris, Co Carlow - it would cost 800,000 euros minimum - for a village of about 800 souls - you can get to 4 already established swimming pools in larger towns within a 20 minute drive - whats the point ?- there was no demand for an swimming pool before this and this election stunt has got its own committee (chaired of course by the aforementioned councillor) who will do their best to drive the rest of our elected reps around the bend for the forseeable future in their demand for this luxury - the same with libraries - there was no demand in for a library in the village - there is an excellent library 10 minutes drive away in Graignuemanagh - and the county libraries in Carlow and Kilkenny are 25-30 minutes drive away -we have a twice daily bus service to both Carlow and Kilkenny - so the Library was built at a cost of 200,000 euros plus - it opens for less than 12 hours a week at odd hours 4 days a week -the library in Bagnalstown (10 minutes away) was downgraded to allow staff and resources go to Borris - now instead one good library in the area - we have 2 sh^tty libraries which less than 2% of the population actually use - all so we can say we have a library - if one town has one - we must have one too - its insanity - and this kind of thing is replicated in nearly every aspect of public sector life across the country.



    .

  11. #26
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    First off if cost is such a problem why has James Reilly not tackled the HSE and its layers of wasteful management. Cutting frontline services is much handier you see. The fukin cheek to tell people from Roscommon to *** off to Galway, Sligo and Castlebar when those A&E's are grossly overstretched as it is. The closure of small hospitals allows pretenders like Reilly to avoid dealing with a health service that is infested with beauracratic ticks....maybe the urban dweller is happier paying for that sort of expenditure.

    And lets not pretend that this is a rural problem...I guarantee ten years down the line that instead of sniping at rural dwellers (because there will be *** all left...despite that wonderful lifestyle we apparently have, financed of course by the urbanite who works 12 hours a day just so we can have bog parties) it'll be all those outside the greater Dublin areas, as the process of grossly unequal centralisation reaches its zenith in the east.

    I've never complained about my taxes going toward funding the cost of chronic urban social problems.

    I agree that the county system isn't great but I think some sort of federated regionalism would be better...currently counties are divided almost entirely on the basis of natural features and prevents logical intergration of services and government. If the country were divided into regions with local democratic powers and the different regions allowed to develope themselves, then it would be much better than the current Dublinisation of the country.

    Sense of place and community are incredibly important inate things that our current market value culture fails to realise. What has happened to our country over the past few decades has quickly destroyed them for a great many people. The social fallout has been massive, not least a mental health epidemic and chronic substance abuse. This notion if everyone moves to the big city everything will be rosey like in the movies is deluded at best. The human being is much more complicated than "efficient" use of tax money. At a very basic level the human mind is much more comfortable processing natural images, like tree lines, hills and fields (I'm not taking the p1ss here!) then you also have the long history of cultural entwinment with living in a natural, semi natural environment. These are all things that need to be taken into account before demanding that everyone should move to Adamstown.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Your post raises issues that are definitely worth discussion but which go well beyond the scope of this thread. Maybe you should ask the mods to hive it off to a thread of its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    Well - I live in rural country Carlow - its a 1 hour trip to either Kilkenny,Waterford or Wexford to an A&E facility - 2 hours round trip if an ambulance has to collect me. Thats the breaks of living the rural life. I do not have a right to a bells and whistles hospital on my doorstep - the population isn't there and the people of Carlow have gone on living their lives without this facility -the mortality rate hasn;t gone thru the roof - Im sure the people of Roscommon will be able to do also.
    The people of Roscommon aren't asking for a bells and whistles hospital. They just want a reasonable level of emergency care to enable them to survive long enough to transfer to the bells and whistles hospital.

    There's no escaping the fact that this programme of downgrading hospitals and closing A&E units will kill people, probably me amongst them. It's that stark.

    "Safety is not simply about surgical competence, but is also about timely access to treatment. Time to treatment, particularly in remote geographical regions is absolutely crucial."

    Those are not my words but the words of James Reilly. Of course when he wrote that he was campaigning for votes for FG in the General Election. Now that he has his feet under the cabinet table his opinion seems to have undergone some revision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    This is the end result of the populist blackmail that has passed for politics in this country for too long -
    Your party had no principled opposition to populism when they were campaigning in the GE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    if the people of Roscommon want A full A&E facility on their doorsteps - well they can pay for it themselves - are they prepared to pay a levy for the upgrading of the facility?
    In the interests of consistency would you ask urban dwellers to pay levies for the services they enjoy? How many hospitals would Dublin people be charged for? And that's on top of universities, the Luas, the National Gallery and water charges. Ouch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    the same goes for all rural areas and services - for too long the urban dwellers of this country have subsidised the lifestyles of the rural in this country - its time that rural Ireland was asked to pay the full economic cost of choosing to live where they do
    How do these subsidies you speak of operate? Rural people pay tax on the same basis as urban people but they have almost no public services in return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    then we wouldn't have one of the most diffused and uneconomic housing patterns in the developed world and we would be able to afford to have world-class facilities a couple of hours from everybody instead of mediocre sh^te 20 minutes away from all.
    World class facilities a few hours away is a fantastic idea for anyone who can live for a few hours to get to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    The county system is the bane of our country and the cause of a lot of our problems.

    Unfortunately the vast majority of the country outside Dublin tends to treat the election of TDs to the political equivalent of sending a GAA team to Croke Park - to do honour for the county and come away with the spoils of victory - normally getting one over dem boys in Dublin with "our minister" who will lavish largess on our county - sadly that is the way it has worked and the civil service have colluded in this populist nonsense for the most part aswell.

    this kind of thing is so deeply rooted in our political culture from the cabinet table right down to the town "councils" and VEC boards - that it will take a monumental effort to start to change this. it starts at parish level with councillors in collusion with the county manager and his staff deciding the road budgets for an area - each councillor gets to prioritize his promises to his favoured clients - thats why in many rural areas you will have important roads going to rack and ruin - yet you will see small country lanes leading to no more than one or two houses being lavishly resurfaced to a level out of all proportion for a mile or so - all at the expense of the taxpayer - clientalism is killing us -

    another example would be that our local ambitious Full-time labour councillor has proposed the building of a heated indoor swimming pool for the village - I live in Borris, Co Carlow - it would cost 800,000 euros minimum - for a village of about 800 souls - you can get to 4 already established swimming pools in larger towns within a 20 minute drive - whats the point ?- there was no demand for an swimming pool before this and this election stunt has got its own committee (chaired of course by the aforementioned councillor) who will do their best to drive the rest of our elected reps around the bend for the forseeable future in their demand for this luxury - the same with libraries - there was no demand in for a library in the village - there is an excellent library 10 minutes drive away in Graignuemanagh - and the county libraries in Carlow and Kilkenny are 25-30 minutes drive away -we have a twice daily bus service to both Carlow and Kilkenny - so the Library was built at a cost of 200,000 euros plus - it opens for less than 12 hours a week at odd hours 4 days a week -the library in Bagnalstown (10 minutes away) was downgraded to allow staff and resources go to Borris - now instead one good library in the area - we have 2 sh^tty libraries which less than 2% of the population actually use - all so we can say we have a library - if one town has one - we must have one too - its insanity - and this kind of thing is replicated in nearly every aspect of public sector life across the country.
    TDs are elected from geographical constituencies. They are supposed to represent the interests of the people in those constituencies in the national parliament. The problem we have at the moment is that most of the ministers are from Dublin and other large urban centres so there's no significant rural input into decision making.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    The people of Roscommon aren't asking for a bells and whistles hospital. They just want a reasonable level of emergency care to enable them to survive long enough to transfer to the bells and whistles hospital.
    thats what they are getting - and they have more specialist A&E units in Galway,Castlebar and Sligo an hours drive from whatever part of Roscommon you live - its not the f^ckin size of texas you know - if we can get by in Carlow and other areas of the country without an A&E on our doorstep for the last 30 years - Roscommon can get by too,

    T
    here's no escaping the fact that this programme of downgrading hospitals and closing A&E units will kill people, probably me amongst them. It's that stark.
    People die everyday - you cant save everybody - sh^t happens - if you are that concerned about your health - maybe you should consider relocating to the perimeter of your nearest A&E unit - if you choose to live in the countryside - thems are the breaks.





    Your party had no principled opposition to populism when they were campaigning in the GE.
    I'll give ya that - tell me one party or individual running the last time out who did?

    In the interests of consistency would you ask urban dwellers to pay levies for the services they enjoy? How many hospitals would Dublin people be charged for? And that's on top of universities, the Luas, the National Gallery and water charges. Ouch!
    No - because they are already paying for it and more - out of the 25 billion in taxes collected in 2007/2008 - the Borders,West and Midlands collected under 5 billion - the South and East collected 18 Billion and Dublin and its suburbs contributed over 10 billion of that - they are most definitely subsidising everybody else - if fact they would be far better off spending the tax that is collected in Dublin on Dublin people themselves.

    http://www.cso.ie/releasespublicatio.../regincome.pdf

    Tell you what - why dont we make every region and county responsible for health,education and ulitities spending out of the taxation raised in its own border?- you would see the exact same situation as is occuring in the EU at the moment - Dublin,Limerick,Galway and Cork city bailing out everybody else.



    How do these subsidies you speak of operate? Rural people pay tax on the same basis as urban people but they have almost no public services in return.
    Roscommon people and businesses pay barely 250 million in tax out of total of 25 billion and are in receipt of social transfers of 280 million from other counties - take a look at Roscommon county council budgets for 2010/2011 - they will spend 65 million - 37 million will from their entitlement as per population, 10 million from rates and 18 billion from the local government fund - which is a nice way of saying its a wealth transfer from other counties taxpayers.

    World class facilities a few hours away is a fantastic idea for anyone who can live for a few hours to get to them.
    You want to live in the country - well take that into account - Hospitals and medical facilities are located in areas of population density and usage - it makes sense - if you want to live away from that - then you should accept that you will pay a premium for these services or accept the consequences of where you reside.


    TDs are elected from geographical constituencies. They are supposed to represent the interests of the people in those constituencies in the national parliament. The problem we have at the moment is that most of the ministers are from Dublin and other large urban centres so there's no significant rural input into decision making.
    [/QUOTE]

    Nonsense - the cabinet is 50/50 dublin and the rest - as I said above we can try and live as the one small country which we are and share the resources in the most efficient manner to the benefit of all - or we can decide to be 26 little countries with mediocrity and sh^t services all around.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    thats what they are getting - and they have more specialist A&E units in Galway,Castlebar and Sligo an hours drive from whatever part of Roscommon you live - its not the f^ckin size of texas you know - if we can get by in Carlow and other areas of the country without an A&E on our doorstep for the last 30 years - Roscommon can get by too,

    People die everyday - you cant save everybody - sh^t happens - if you are that concerned about your health - maybe you should consider relocating to the perimeter of your nearest A&E unit - if you choose to live in the countryside - thems are the breaks.
    But I don't live out the country I live in Portlaoise town. If I could demolish a handful of houses I'd be able to see the hospital. I'd prefer the better quality of life in the country but I stayed where I am to be close to the hospital because of my health needs. Now it looks as if Reilly will pass a death sentence on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    No - because they are already paying for it and more - out of the 25 billion in taxes collected in 2007/2008 - the Borders,West and Midlands collected under 5 billion - the South and East collected 18 Billion and Dublin and its suburbs contributed over 10 billion of that - they are most definitely subsidising everybody else - if fact they would be far better off spending the tax that is collected in Dublin on Dublin people themselves.

    http://www.cso.ie/releasespublicatio.../regincome.pdf

    Tell you what - why dont we make every region and county responsible for health,education and ulitities spending out of the taxation raised in its own border?- you would see the exact same situation as is occuring in the EU at the moment - Dublin,Limerick,Galway and Cork city bailing out everybody else.

    Roscommon people and businesses pay barely 250 million in tax out of total of 25 billion and are in receipt of social transfers of 280 million from other counties - take a look at Roscommon county council budgets for 2010/2011 - they will spend 65 million - 37 million will from their entitlement as per population, 10 million from rates and 18 billion from the local government fund - which is a nice way of saying its a wealth transfer from other counties taxpayers.
    You seem to have misinterpreted the figures you're relying on. The social transfers for Roscommon are listed as €322M not €280M. The corresponding figure for Dublin is €6,719M

    Tax take figures are massive loaded in favour of Dublin because so many major firms have their headquarters there. For instance, you pay your ESB or Eircom bills and the VAT goes in the Dublin column as does the element of corporate tax that your business generated. The Garda patrol car based in Carlow is registered in Dublin - chalk more Carlow revenue up to Dublin.

    It may also be the case that some or all civil servants PAYE is recorded to Dublin's credit because they have (or at least they had) their own inspector of taxes based there.

    Some Dublin taxes come directly from the lack of provision of public services elsewhere for example Carlow kids going to Uni in Dublin because they don't have the opportunity at home, are spending their Carlow money in the capital.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    You want to live in the country - well take that into account - Hospitals and medical facilities are located in areas of population density and usage - it makes sense - if you want to live away from that - then you should accept that you will pay a premium for these services or accept the consequences of where you reside.
    And when you decide where to live based on the services available and then the government closes down those services, what then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edo View Post
    Nonsense - the cabinet is 50/50 dublin and the rest - as I said above we can try and live as the one small country which we are and share the resources in the most efficient manner to the benefit of all - or we can decide to be 26 little countries with mediocrity and sh^t services all around.
    What I said was 'Dublin and other large urban centres' and that was entirely accurate.

    Of the 15 members of the cabinet, 9 represent Dublin constituencies (66%), 1 represents Cork and 1 represents Limerick. That's almost 75% and I don't know if Hogan and Howlin are urbanites as well.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: "Heave beginning against Enda" (Contingency Thread)




    Somebody is at Dicky's account lol

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