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Thread: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

  1. #16
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    This is what the Constitution says about legislation -

    Legislation
    Article 20
    1. Every Bill initiated in and passed by Dáil Éireann shall be sent to Seanad Éireann and may, unless it be a Money Bill, be amended in Seanad Éireann and Dáil Éireann shall consider any such amendment.
    2. 1° A Bill other than a Money Bill may be initiated in Seanad Éireann, and if passed by Seanad Éireann, shall be introduced in Dáil Éireann.
    2° A Bill initiated in Seanad Éireann if amended in Dáil Éireann shall be considered as a Bill initiated in Dáil Éireann.
    3. A Bill passed by either House and accepted by the other House shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses.
    Money Bills
    Article 21
    1. 1° Money Bills shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann only.
    2° Every Money Bill passed by Dáil Éireann shall be sent to Seanad Éireann for its recommendations.
    2. 1° Every Money Bill sent to Seanad Éireann for its recommendations shall, at the expiration of a period not longer than twenty-one days after it shall have been sent to Seanad Éireann, be returned to Dáil Éireann, which may accept or reject all or any of the recommendations of Seanad Éireann.
    2° If such Money Bill is not returned by Seanad Éireann to Dáil Éireann within such twenty-one days or is
    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    returned within such twenty-one days with recommendations which Dáil Éireann does not accept, it shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses at the expiration of the said twenty-one days.
    Article 22
    1. 1° A Money Bill means a Bill which contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the following matters, namely, the imposition, repeal, remission, alteration or regulation of taxation; the imposition for the payment of debt or other financial purposes of charges on public moneys or the variation or repeal of any such charges; supply; the appropriation, receipt, custody, issue or audit of accounts of public money; the raising or guarantee of any loan or the repayment thereof; matters subordinate and incidental to these matters or any of them.
    2° In this definition the expressions "taxation", "public money" and "loan" respectively do not include any taxation, money or loan raised by local authorities or bodies for local purposes.
    2. 1° The Chairman of Dáil Éireann shall certify any Bill which, in his opinion, is a Money Bill to be a Money Bill, and his certificate shall, subject to the subsequent provisions of this section, be final and conclusive.
    2° Seanad Éireann, by a resolution, passed at a sitting at which not less than thirty members are present, may request the President to refer the question whether the Bill is or is not a Money Bill to a Committee of Privileges.
    3° If the President after consultation with the Council of State decides to accede to the request he shall appoint a Committee of Privileges consisting of an equal number of members of Dáil Éireann and of Seanad Éireann and a Chairman who shall be a Judge of the Supreme Court: these appointments shall be made after consultation with the Council of State. In the case of an equality of votes but not otherwise the Chairman shall be entitled to vote.
    4° The President shall refer the question to the Committee of Privileges so appointed and the Committee shall report its decision thereon to the President within twenty-one days after the day on which the Bill was sent to Seanad Éireann.
    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    5° The decision of the Committee shall be final and conclusive.
    6° If the President after consultation with the Council of State decides not to accede to the request of Seanad Éireann, or if the Committee of Privileges fails to report within the time hereinbefore specified the certificate of the Chairman of Dáil Éireann shall stand confirmed.
    Time for Consideration of Bills
    Article 23
    1. This Article applies to every Bill passed by Dáil Éireann and sent to Seanad Éireann other than a Money Bill or a Bill the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann shall have been abridged under Article 24 of this Constitution.
    1° Whenever a Bill to which this Article applies is within the stated period defined in the next following sub-section either rejected by Seanad Éireann or passed by Seanad Éireann with amendments to which Dáil Éireann does not agree or is neither passed (with or without amendment) nor rejected by Seanad Éireann within the stated period, the Bill shall, if Dáil Éireann so resolves within one hundred and eighty days after the expiration of the stated period be deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas on the day on which the resolution is passed.
    2° The stated period is the period of ninety days commencing on the day on which the Bill is first sent by Dáil Éireann to Seanad Éireann or any longer period agreed upon in respect of the Bill by both Houses of the Oireachtas.
    2. 1° The preceding section of this Article shall apply to a Bill which is initiated in and passed by Seanad Éireann, amended by Dáil Éireann, and accordingly deemed to have been initiated in Dáil Éireann.
    2° For the purpose of this application the stated period shall in relation to such a Bill commence on the day on which the Bill is first sent to Seanad Éireann after having been amended by Dáil Éireann.
    Article 24
    1. If and whenever on the passage by Dáil Éireann of any Bill, other than a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal
    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    to amend the Constitution, the Taoiseach certifies by messages in writing addressed to the President and to the Chairman of each House of the Oireachtas that, in the opinion of the Government, the Bill is urgent and immediately necessary for the preservation of the public peace and security, or by reason of the existence of a public emergency, whether domestic or international, the time for the consideration of such Bill by Seanad Éireann shall, if Dáil Éireann so resolves and if the President, after consultation with the Council of State, concurs, be abridged to such period as shall be specified in the resolution.
    2. Where a Bill, the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann has been abridged under this Article,
    (a) is, in the case of a Bill which is not a Money Bill, rejected by Seanad Éireann or passed by Seanad Éireann with amendments to which Dáil Éireann does not agree or neither passed nor rejected by Seanad Éireann, or
    (b) is, in the case of a Money Bill, either returned by Seanad Éireann to Dáil Éireann with recommendations which Dáil Éireann does not accept or is not returned by Seanad Éireann to Dáil Éireann,
    within the period specified in the resolution, the Bill shall be deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas at the expiration of that period.
    3. When a Bill the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann has been abridged under this Article becomes law it shall remain in force for a period of ninety days from the date of its enactment and no longer unless, before the expiration of that period, both Houses shall have agreed that such law shall remain in force for a longer period and the longer period so agreed upon shall have been specified in resolutions passed by both Houses.
    Signing and Promulgation of Laws
    Article 25
    1. As soon as any Bill, other than a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution, shall have been passed or deemed to have been passed by
    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    both Houses of the Oireachtas, the Taoiseach shall present it to the President for his signature and for promulgation by him as a law in accordance with the provisions of this Article.
    2. 1° Save as otherwise provided by this Constitution, every Bill so presented to the President for his signature and for promulgation by him as a law shall be signed by the President not earlier than the fifth and not later than the seventh day after the date on which the Bill shall have been presented to him.
    2° At the request of the Government, with the prior concurrence of Seanad Éireann, the President may sign any Bill the subject of such request on a date which is earlier than the fifth day after such date as aforesaid.
    3. Every Bill the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann shall have been abridged under Article 24 of this Constitution shall be signed by the President on the day on which such Bill is presented to him for signature and promulgation as a law.
    4. 1° Every Bill shall become and be law as on and from the day on which it is signed by the President under this Constitution, and shall, unless the contrary intention appears, come into operation on that day.
    2° Every Bill signed by the President under this Constitution shall be promulgated by him as a law by the publication by his direction of a notice in the Iris Oifigiúil stating that the Bill has become law.
    3° Every Bill shall be signed by the President in the text in which it was passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, and if a Bill is so passed or deemed to have been passed in both the official languages, the President shall sign the text of the Bill in each of those languages.
    4° Where the President signs the text of a Bill in one only of the official languages, an official translation shall be issued in the other official language.
    5° As soon as may be after the signature and promulgation of a Bill as a law, the text of such law which was signed by the President or, where the President has signed the text of such law in each of the official languages, both the signed texts shall be enrolled for record in the office of the Registrar of the Supreme Court, and the text, or both the texts, so
    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    enrolled shall be conclusive evidence of the provisions of such law.
    6° In case of conflict between the texts of a law enrolled under this section in both the official languages, the text in the national language shall prevail.
    5. 1° It shall be lawful for the Taoiseach, from time to time as occasion appears to him to require, to cause to be prepared under his supervision a text (in both the official languages) of this Constitution as then in force embodying all amendments theretofore made therein.
    2° A copy of every text so prepared, when authenticated by the signatures of the Taoiseach and the Chief Justice, shall be signed by the President and shall be enrolled for record in the office of the Registrar of the Supreme Court.
    3° The copy so signed and enrolled which is for the time being the latest text so prepared shall, upon such enrolment, be conclusive evidence of this Constitution as at the date of such enrolment and shall for that purpose supersede all texts of this Constitution of which copies were so enrolled.
    4° In case of conflict between the texts of any copy of this Constitution enrolled under this section, the text in the national language shall prevail. Reference of Bills to the Supreme Court
    Article 26
    This Article applies to any Bill passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas other than a Money Bill, or a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal to amend the Constitution, or a Bill the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann shall have been abridged under Article 24 of this Constitution.
    1. 1° The President may, after consultation with the Council of State, refer any Bill to which this Article applies to the Supreme Court for a decision on the question as to whether such Bill or any specified provision or provisions of such Bill is or are repugnant to this Constitution or to any provision thereof.
    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    2° Every such reference shall be made not later than the seventh day after the date on which such Bill shall have been presented by the Taoiseach to the President for his signature.
    3° The President shall not sign any Bill the subject of a reference to the Supreme Court under this Article pending the pronouncement of the decision of the Court.
    2. 1° The Supreme Court consisting of not less than five judges shall consider every question referred to it by the President under this Article for a decision, and, having heard arguments by or on behalf of the Attorney General and by counsel assigned by the Court, shall pronounce its decision on such question in open court as soon as may be, and in any case not later than sixty days after the date of such reference.
    2° The decision of the majority of the judges of the Supreme Court shall, for the purposes of this Article, be the decision of the Court and shall be pronounced by such one of those judges as the Court shall direct, and no other opinion, whether assenting or dissenting, shall be pronounced nor shall the existence of any such other opinion be disclosed.
    3. 1° In every case in which the Supreme Court decides that any provision of a Bill the subject of a reference to the Supreme Court under this Article is repugnant to this Constitution or to any provision thereof, the President shall decline to sign such Bill.
    2° If, in the case of a Bill to which Article 27 of this Constitution applies, a petition has been addressed to the President under that Article, that Article shall be complied with.
    3° In every other case the President shall sign the Bill as soon as may be after the date on which the decision of the Supreme Court shall have been pronounced.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    Reference of Bills to the People
    Article 27
    This Article applies to any Bill, other than a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution, which shall have been deemed, by virtue of Article 23 hereof, to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.
    1. A majority of the members of Seanad Éireann and not less than one-third of the members of Dáil Éireann may by a joint petition addressed to the President by them under this Article request the President to decline to sign and promulgate as a law any Bill to which this article applies on the ground that the Bill contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained.
    2. Every such petition shall be in writing and shall be signed by the petitioners whose signatures shall be verified in the manner prescribed by law.
    3. Every such petition shall contain a statement of the particular ground or grounds on which the request is based, and shall be presented to the President not later than four days after the date on which the Bill shall have been deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.
    4. 1° Upon receipt of a petition addressed to him under this Article, the President shall forthwith consider such petition and shall, after consultation with the Council of State, pronounce his decision thereon not later than ten days after the date on which the Bill to which such petition relates shall have been deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.
    2° If the Bill or any provision thereof is or has been referred to the Supreme Court under Article 26 of this Constitution, it shall not be obligatory on the President to consider the petition unless or until the Supreme Court has pronounced a decision on such reference to the effect that the said Bill or the said provision thereof is not repugnant to this Constitution or to any provision thereof, and, if a decision to that effect is pronounced by the Supreme Court, it shall not be obligatory on the President to pronounce his decision on the petition before the expiration of six days after the day on which the decision of the Supreme Court to the effect aforesaid is pronounced.
    5. 1° In every case in which the President decides that a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article contains a proposal of
    CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND – BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained, he shall inform the Taoiseach and the Chairman of each House of the Oireachtas accordingly in writing under his hand and Seal and shall decline to sign and promulgate such Bill as a law unless and until the proposal shall have been approved either
    i by the people at a Referendum in accordance with the provisions of section 2 of Article 47 of this Constitution within a period of eighteen months from the date of the President’s decision, or
    ii by a resolution of Dáil Éireann passed within the said period after a dissolution and re-assembly of Dáil Éireann.
    2° Whenever a proposal contained in a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article shall have been approved either by the people or by a resolution of Dáil Éireann in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this section, such Bill shall as soon as may be after such approval be presented to the President for his signature and promulgation by him as a law and the President shall thereupon sign the Bill and duly promulgate it as a law.
    6. In every case in which the President decides that a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article does not contain a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained, he shall inform the Taoiseach and the Chairman of each House of the Oireachtas accordingly in writing under his hand and Seal, and such Bill shall be signed by the President not later than eleven days after the date on which the Bill shall have been deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas and shall be duly promulgated by him as a law.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    Namawinelake has just posted on the CI(S)B and on the IMF agreement -

    http://wp.me/pNlCf-T0


    But last Wednesday in the Dail we ceded a very big chunk of sovereignty as we accepted the IMF/EU bailout by 81 votes to 75 (of the 166 constituency seats, 3 are vacant and seven deputies did not take part in the vote – the Ceann Comhairle Seamus Kirk (FF), Olwyn Enright (FG), Noel Grealish (PD), Dinny McGinley (FG), Liz McManus (Labour), Willie O’Dea (FF), Alan Shatter (FG)). The previous week there had been a two-day debate of the bailout deal though it was not until the debate had been more or less concluded when the Memorandum of Understanding and NTMA note on the interest rates were published. This week there was a 70-minute debate – as SF pointed out, with 158 deputies that left a theoretical 35 seconds each for each deputy to contribute (not sure about the arithmetic but the principle was sound). It was of course a rubber-stamping exercise and the greatest surprise for me was that deputies did not walk out en masse – it wouldn’t have changed the immediate result but it would have placed others on notice that the agreement was likely to be set aside or at least revisited in a few short weeks.
    However - NAMAwinelake makes the great point that the draconian powers assumed by Lenihan under the Bill, could do something quite different under a radical government.

    Until we look like having one, I think such powers should be kept away from Lenihan at all costs.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 19-12-2010 at 04:27 PM.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    No mention on the 9 o'clock news

    No doubt if the ECB had praised Lenihan and his plan RTE would have been shouting rather loudly and interviewing every FFer they could find
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    No mention on the 9 o'clock news

    No doubt if the ECB had praised Lenihan and his plan RTE would have been shouting rather loudly and interviewing every FFer they could find
    I haven't read the legislation yet. By the time I've finished washing the bottles in the Síbín and replenishing the sawdust, reading time is hard to find.

    I'll try it later tonight.

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  7. #22
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    No wonder the IMF is worried about 'political instabilitty'. With so much power in the hand of the Minister for Finance, they really need to have one very obedient lackey on the job.

    As Comical Lenny outlined in his National Recovery Plan, "more needs to be done" (he really used this FF phrase, p.29). I can't see the IMF allowing these Green Party jokers to walk, not now.

    What happened to 'having a General Election in the second half of January 2011' anyway'?
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Adobe Acrobat Reader is required to access PDF documents – download the reader free from the Adobe website
    It is most certainly not required! Acrobat Reader qualifies as spyware (AR 'phones home', installs unsolicited additional software, etc.), there are plenty clean alternatives available to read PDF documents (i.e. PDF-Xchange Viewer, Foxit PDF Reader, Sumatra PDF, to name but a view).
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    Today's Times covering this

    THE EUROPEAN Central Bank has told the Government that it has “serious concerns” about the Credit Institutions (Stabilisation) Bill, which gives the Minister for Finance sweeping powers to intervene in the banking sector.

    In a seven-page opinion signed off by ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet, the Frankfurt-based institution raised concerns that the draft law is “insufficiently legally certain” on a number of critical issues for the euro system.
    The warning from Mr Trichet reflects ECB fears of the risks involved in providing liquidity to Irish banks. The most recent data show Irish banks having €136 billion in loans outstanding from the ECB – a quarter of the total in the euro zone – and €45 billion in emergency liquidity assistance from the Irish Central Bank.

    To obtain liquidity euro zone banks have to put up assets as collateral. The ECB’s concern is to ensure it always holds enough collateral of sufficient quality to minimise its exposure were some of the funds it provides not paid back.

    The paper from Mr Trichet is the latest manifestation of the ECB’s worries about the risks it is carrying as it battles the euro zone’s mounting debt crisis.

    A Department of Finance spokesman said there was “no question of the Central Bank, ECB or any national central bank, as creditors to the guaranteed institutions, being exposed financially by the exercise of the Minister’s powers under the Bill”.

    He said it was “inconceivable” that the Minister would make specific directions or implement specific asset transfers unless these were supported by the Central Bank.

    The spokesman added that the consultation period was constrained as work on the bulk of the Bill only started at the end of November.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...285917826.html
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  10. #25
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    He said it was “inconceivable” that the Minister would make specific directions or implement specific asset transfers unless these were supported by the Central Bank
    .

    ha!ha!ha!!! The Minister has gone right ahead with the Bank Guarantee, and virtually every other significant step, ahead of getting the support of the ECB. They are at this stage heartily sick of it, it seems.

    The spokesman added that the consultation period was constrained as work on the bulk of the Bill only started at the end of November.
    The Government and Department of Finance has had two years to produce legislation on how to terminate (resolve) a bank. And they started at the end of November.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Thank you very much DCon.

    The Council of State is stacked with the most dubious people from North and South and certainly in part non-Irish interests are represented in it.

    But the Bill is blatantly unconstitutional.

    There is a need for a case to be taken in relation to the 4-year plan and IMF Memorandum - but the time for it may have passed - I wish there were some honest lawyers about who would advise, but they are all it seem bought out by the enormous funds slushed at the legal profession by RTE ?

    The Council of State meets next Tuesday - where, I wonder ?
    This meeting will take place at 2.30 in the Council of State rooms in the Arás.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral

    Quote Originally Posted by geri222 View Post
    This meeting will take place at 2.30 in the Council of State rooms in the Arás.
    Thanks geri222.

    If you're on the Council of State, please refer it on to the Supreme Court

    Lenihan has done enough damage, without us giving him Super Powers.

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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    .


    The Government and Department of Finance has had two years to produce legislation on how to terminate (resolve) a bank. And they started at the end of November.
    But Cactus, we were turning that corner......took us a while!!!!


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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    Albert Reynolds on the Council of State? Is that the same Albert Reynolds who according to medical opinion was unable to testify at the Mahon Tribunal in 2008 because of 'severe cognitive impairment'?

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    Default Re: ECB raises fears over Irish collateral - and "Legal Certainty" of CIS Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyJoe McGillycuddy View Post
    Albert Reynolds on the Council of State? Is that the same Albert Reynolds who according to medical opinion was unable to testify at the Mahon Tribunal in 2008 because of 'severe cognitive impairment'?
    Every ex-Taoiseach is automatically on the CoS but yeah how can he turn up and pronounce on the constitutionality of legislation in a CoS meeting if he can't attend corruption tribunals?

    On another point raised by the Cap'n.....I really really wonder what on earth is in the books of Anglo/INBS that is so bad that FF are so desperately fearful of it ever getting out. We've had 40 years of dodgy FFers, brown envelopes, corruption, "won it on the horses", bankrupting the nation repeatedly and now abandoning Irish sovereignty to the IMF/EU....but whatever lurks in the books of Anglo and INBS is worse than all that? Even bad enough to shake the Faith of the remaining 17%?

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