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Thread: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    [quote=Garibaldy;165852][quote=antiestablishmentarian;165846]

    Just a few points. Firstly, the idea of sectarian persecution as outlined above is something that members of the Party wouldn't accept as an accurate characterisation.
    Seriously? What about collusion with loyalist paramilitaries, internment, involvement in bombings and shootings, and protection of informers who committed sectarian atrocities against innocent catholics?

    Secondly, the position put forward in the discussion document - and not policy document - the Irish Industrial Revolution was that, given the failure of the lazy Irish bourgeoisie to pursue the path of industrialisation, if multi-nationals drove Irish industrialisation it would be them who created a larger proletariat in Ireland, the grave diggers of the bourgeoisie. Whatever one thinks about that document as a whole, it's perfectly in line with the dialectical theory of capitalism containing the seeds of its own destruction in the Communist Manifesto. And by the by, after reading Conor McCabe's Sins of the Father, the lazy bourgeoisie line looks a lot more credible.
    The Irish bourgeoisie as a lazy class incapable of developing Ireland industrially is not something I'm going to disagree with you about. What I would disagree with is the need for multi-nationals to create a working class, sowing the seeds for the death of capitalism. From the 1960s onwards, it was quite clear that Ireland was becoming a more urban society, with a flight from the land and a move to the cities taking place.The emergence of a working class had happened long before, and it was augmented in this period, as the growth in support for the WP and other left parties in the 1980s showed. A call, in this context, for multi-nationals to come in and develop industry, was simply a call for American imperialism to have a greater role in Ireland whatever the hoped for side effects. The working class would have grown more given the prevailing economic situation, and it would have made more sense to try and mobilise on the platform of a massive state industrialisation plan to bring the development needed, and to do so independently of imperialism, than to put forward the proposals that were contained in the Irish Industrial Revolution.
    And the WP was NEVER in a coalition government with FF. This is simply untrue. Agreeing not to bring down the government in return for certain commitments is not the same as being in a coalition, as is obvious. Once the commitments were broken, the support was withdrawn, contributing to the fall of that government.
    Sorry, they supported an FF government, and their TDs voted for Haughey as Taoiseach. Entirely different from a coalition
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    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
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  2. #152
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post
    ...mobilise on the platform of a massive state industrialisation plan to bring the development needed, and to do so independently of imperialism, than to put forward the proposals that were contained in the Irish Industrial Revolution.
    In a nutshell there's the difference between the ultra-Left blue-sky and the grounded approach of the WP.

    The massive state industrialisation was never going to happen under FG/FG in the 70s/80s. Whereas FDI did.

    It's fine calling for things that don't have a snowballs chance in hell of coming about, but it's missing the opportunity to make actual progress in the meantime while you're waiting.

  3. #153
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Does that mean an adherence to the "stages" theory in which a bourgeois / capitalist revolution and capitalist economy must be full developed before moving to a workers' revolution ?
    I don't know, does it?

  4. #154
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    [quote=antiestablishmentarian;165858][quote=Garibaldy;165852]
    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post


    Seriously? What about collusion with loyalist paramilitaries, internment, involvement in bombings and shootings, and protection of informers who committed sectarian atrocities against innocent catholics?


    The Irish bourgeoisie as a lazy class incapable of developing Ireland industrially is not something I'm going to disagree with you about. What I would disagree with is the need for multi-nationals to create a working class, sowing the seeds for the death of capitalism. From the 1960s onwards, it was quite clear that Ireland was becoming a more urban society, with a flight from the land and a move to the cities taking place.The emergence of a working class had happened long before, and it was augmented in this period, as the growth in support for the WP and other left parties in the 1980s showed. A call, in this context, for multi-nationals to come in and develop industry, was simply a call for American imperialism to have a greater role in Ireland whatever the hoped for side effects. The working class would have grown more given the prevailing economic situation, and it would have made more sense to try and mobilise on the platform of a massive state industrialisation plan to bring the development needed, and to do so independently of imperialism, than to put forward the proposals that were contained in the Irish Industrial Revolution.
    Sorry, they supported an FF government, and their TDs voted for Haughey as Taoiseach. Entirely different from a coalition
    I meant your notion of sectarian persecution within the WP led by Harris and Smullen contained in the comment by yourself quoted by me at the start of the comment you are asking about.

    The WP called for state-led industrialisation, including in the Irish Industrial Revolution, and put forward numerous plans for that to happen. It continues to do so (on CLR you can find a submission to the McCarthy privatisation committee saying exactly that for example, and I've just put up a submission to the UK Treasury on corporation tax calling for state-led economic initiatives). The point made for discussion in the Irish Industrial Revolution - and again, the IIR was not a policy document - was whether, given that the Irish state had decided to make attracting foreign investment its number one economic policy, that policy could have objectively progressive benefits, and thus might be worth being viewed in a more positive light.

    Do you really not understand the difference between a deal on certain areas and a coalition? A coalition involves having ministers and the like. The WP did not have any of these. Was it an FF-WP-Tony Gregory coalition? Is that what we should call that government? (there may have been other independents who had done a deal the same time, I can't remember off the top of my head)

  5. #155
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The promotion of industrial development in Ireland is certainly not something that would be opposed by Marxists. The question of how that could take place in Ireland is very important. I have tried in the past to find Harris's document on line to see what he actually said. Do you happen to know if it's available?
    You can get the second edition at the link below

    http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/201...-edition-1978/

  6. #156
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Thanks for your reply. Which number post is the one which you say previously explained this ?

    Sean Garland was described here as an anti-Imperialist. What was the WP analysis of US and British imperialism and their role in Ireland ?

    Do you see any comparison between defending Garland from extradition, and saying that republicans should not be handed over to the British State ?

    Did the WP say that democratic control of policing could be achieved in Ireland, under capitalism and under British control ?
    I can't remember the number, but it has been over the last few days, so won't be that hard to find.

    Briefly, the WP's analysis of imperialism - as developed from the republican rethink of the 1960s - is that it is not simply British troops on Irish soil, or even hangovers like ground rent or ownership of rivers etc by aristocrats. It is the entire economic, social and political system across the island, and is tied not simply to the UK nor the US, but also involves the EU. Imperialism is viewed by the WP in line with Lenin's Imperialism The Highest Stage of Capitalism. Defeating imperialism means revolutionising the whole of Irish society.

    Regarding extradition, someone elsewhere dug out a quote from MacGiolla in 1986 saying that people should only be extradited if there is credible evidence against them. The same human rights issues and questions of a fair trial would apply.

    It is possible to introduce much more democratic control of policing in a capitalist society, even if the police will remain ultimately an instrument of class power. More democratic control lessens that aspect.

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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftAtTheCross View Post
    I don't know, does it?
    I'm not a member of the party. Perhaps someone who is would be able to answer.

  8. #158
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I'm not a member of the party. Perhaps someone who is would be able to answer.
    Mine was an unfair retort actually.

    What I meant was actually that I'm not really concerned how that approach might be pigeon-holed. People might like to categorise it as aligning with a stages theory, that's up to themselves really if they want to see it as that, for good or for bad.

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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I have tried in the past to find Harris's document on line to see what he actually said. Do you happen to know if it's available?
    You might be best advised to steer well clear:

    Harris does not come across well in Lost Revolution, and although party leaders, especially Cathal Goulding, were mesmerized by him, others were quite sober about his intellectual talents. After the publication of Irish Industrial Revolution, a document largely written by Harris, one member told Garland that it was ‘bad Marxism and inaccurate history” - an assessment correct on both counts. Irish Industrial Revolution is the MacArthur Park of Irish Marxism - bombastic, over the top, and completely nuts, yet strangely appealing to the senses. Reading it is like being slapped in the head with a ledger of statistics, while your balls are fondled by a dwarf. It’s just wrong.


    http://www.irishleftreview.org/2009/...-scott-millar/
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    You might be best advised to steer well clear:





    http://www.irishleftreview.org/2009/...-scott-millar/
    Harris and Johnson were dillatentes.
    Harris has shown this by his flirtation with FG and his Ode to Bertie on the Late Late.
    I remember reading a piece by Harris, in which he mentions the "Boa Constrictor of Capitalism". Had to stifle a laugh as I was in a sea of nodding heads.
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garibaldy View Post
    So, in short, the WP's position was based on a political judgment about sectarianism and the effects of sectarian violence, and was in line with the feelings of a large majority of the Irish working class. That's a hard fact that try as they might people can't rewrite in retrospect.
    What would be the position of said large majority regards the OIRA/WP arsenal which has never been decommissioned. Why does a non-violence party need all the guns?
    "Do not be misled by the promises of politicians. Remember that the whole history of Ireland is a record of betrayals by politicians and statesmen, and remembering this, spurn their lying promises and stand up for a United Ireland - an Ireland broad based upon the union of Labour and Nationality." - James Connolly.

  12. #162
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cáthasaigh View Post
    What would be the position of said large majority regards the OIRA/WP arsenal which has never been decommissioned. Why does a non-violence party need all the guns?
    I thought that they had decommissioned at the same time as the INLA? Or was that just the Newry crowd?
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  13. #163
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    I thought that they had decommissioned at the same time as the INLA? Or was that just the Newry crowd?
    They never decommissioned.
    I think Cathasigh's question is valid.
    I would ask to what purpose have these weapons been used and for the benefit of whom?
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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit -Leading trade unionists and political figures oppose extradition

    [quote=Garibaldy;165861][quote=antiestablishmentarian;165858][quote=Garibaldy;165852]

    I meant your notion of sectarian persecution within the WP led by Harris and Smullen contained in the comment by yourself quoted by me at the start of the comment you are asking about.
    Apologies for getting mixed up. But there was a concerted effort to drive out party members in the 1970s who didn't share the views of Harris and Smullen, and in WP publications social democrats, anarchists and trotskyists were lumped in with fascists as enemies of the working class. This is a fact, and was recorded in the Lost Revolution.


    The WP called for state-led industrialisation, including in the Irish Industrial Revolution, and put forward numerous plans for that to happen. It continues to do so (on CLR you can find a submission to the McCarthy privatisation committee saying exactly that for example, and I've just put up a submission to the UK Treasury on corporation tax calling for state-led economic initiatives). The point made for discussion in the Irish Industrial Revolution - and again, the IIR was not a policy document - was whether, given that the Irish state had decided to make attracting foreign investment its number one economic policy, that policy could have objectively progressive benefits, and thus might be worth being viewed in a more positive light.
    Well it was a false premise, and I'd agree with Garland's unnamed colleague who criticised it as inaccurate history and bad marxism.

    Do you really not understand the difference between a deal on certain areas and a coalition? A coalition involves having ministers and the like. The WP did not have any of these. Was it an FF-WP-Tony Gregory coalition? Is that what we should call that government? (there may have been other independents who had done a deal the same time, I can't remember off the top of my head)
    They voted for Haughey as Taoiseach, and his FF ministers too. They supported their government. That they were not made ministers doesn't negate these facts, and that government collapsed when their support was withdrawn, so it seems to me that their agreement had more of the substance of a coalition government than not, even if it lacked the superficial forms. If the ULA supported Enda Kenny for Taoiseach and voted with the FG government, even if they had no ministers it would still be a coalition agreement to my mind.
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    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
    Pat Rabitte, 1987

    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
    Michael Noonan, November 2010

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    Default Re: Seán Garland benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    I thought that they had decommissioned at the same time as the INLA? Or was that just the Newry crowd?
    It was the ORM which decommissioned. Btw, seeing as they endorsed reporting Provos and others to the state for terrorising working class communities, why did they not do the same for the Group B members who tied up and threatened workers at CIE when they robbed it in the 1980s, or the criminal families they associated with at the same time?
    Нооруз пиээ пурылыа выиттыа


    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
    Pat Rabitte, 1987

    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
    Michael Noonan, November 2010

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