Independents

[Ah Well]

be ready for the Mainstream Machine.

Break the Mainstream Political Machine on and across all fronts which is terminally corrupted and rotten to the core - discard in its entirety, start again with something worthy reputable and of which the Irish can be proud and both be and feel a part of

A Worthy Project - but an extremely difficult one which would of course be thwarted every which way by the vested interested and the deluded following closely behind

[youngdan]

Ireland is unusually lucky in 2 aspects. They don't have electronic voted which can be preprogrammed.

Also it does have PR.

This eliminates the "Wasted Vote" argument used to such effect here.

Anyone with a lick of sence should vote for all the independents before starting on the party candidates. If they are eliminated your #7 is just as good as a #1



Any Irish person who considers themselves patriotic should vote all the encumbants out.

They do not represent the people. They represent their own pocket

[Ah Well]

Any Irish person who considers themselves patriotic should vote all the encumbants out.

They do not represent the people. They represent their own pocket

YD speaks some sense ... start the clean up by getting rid of these (but I would start on the incumbents and the useless we expect to get in instead in waiting also) - the method being of course one's vote

[youngdan]

Vote the cretins out.

Leave the cc looking at 165 new faces

[Ah Well]

Vote the cretins out.

Leave the cc looking at 165 new faces

Potential public reaction .... But we can't do that

Why not? Time for change? - this would be one hell of a way in effecting that

It is 100% the case that there are minimum 160+ people (and many more) out there more capable of being in there and better suited to represent this country than what's in there now

Get rid of them all - time to start afresh

[Ah Well]

What we actually need at this stage ... more so than potential Independents rowing various small boats in different directions up and down the river ...

Is some sort of cohesion to stop Ireland Inc. going over the waterfall to oblivion .... and it's already on that final approach

What is needed is a coming together of great minds and of people to arrange to have those put forward capable of representing the people of this country properly ... and if that is done properly and the quality is there then people will get behind it

What that means is that it be done completely outside of the existing party structures in this country - they are no use, they need to be ignored, they need to be thrown out - forget national Gov, national consensus - it's just the same jokers playing a different card game

Perhaps this might bear fruit - the way it presently is will not and lead potentially to further ruination

[youngdan]

What you seem to miss grasping is that the people who are making the decisions wish to see Ireland going over the waterfall.


Have you ever been to Niagara



Poor auld Paddy will vote for the high jump

[Lifeisagame]

You don't need to replace all TDs, this would be massive and FG+ LAB
will hold a lot of their seats.
The simple part is to try and get enough Independents to hold the balance of power. One would have to look carefully at that and calculate what the number required would be. But you must be careful to not calculate this from a wishlist but be more pragmatic and ensure that the Opposition and the Independents are greater than the Partys in power.
Who would like to make that calculation? I most certainly do not have the Political in depth knowledge to to that.
I must also say I am not trying to build an organisation here, just a concept that people may want to keep throwing into the media to get people to think "I would like to have a go there" They are Independent after all.
So Political Brains lets hear your calculations.

[Baron von Biffo]

You don't need to replace all TDs, this would be massive and FG+ LAB will hold a lot of their seats.
The simple part is to try and get enough Independents to hold the balance of power.

The most likely government will be FG/Lab with, at least if FG ditch Kenny, around 100 seats so independents will be powerless. In any event I can't see any evidence that independents are likely to be intellectually or morally superior to party TDs. If anything they seem to completely abandon the national in favour of the local and we don't need that right now. And of course if we did elect 20 independents next time, the first thing they'd do on entering the Dail would be to band together to form a 'technical group' to maximise their impact - a party of independents you might say.

[Lifeisagame]

The most likely government will be FG/Lab with, at least if FG ditch Kenny, around 100 seats so independents will be powerless. In any event I can't see any evidence that independents are likely to be intellectually or morally superior to party TDs. If anything they seem to completely abandon the national in favour of the local and we don't need that right now. And of course if we did elect 20 independents next time, the first thing they'd do on entering the Dail would be to band together to form a 'technical group' to maximise their impact - a party of independents you might say.

Hi Baron
You make a valid point, but I honestly believe there is going to be a raft of Independents going forward for the next GE anyway. It will be seen as a way to attack All Partys. Furthermore, I believe that people will vote for them also. Again this will be to attack Mainstream Partys.
So this discussion will not have any impact on that. But we should debate the What If scenario.
Your statement re Local v National is an excellent point, so what happens if we do get the raft?
Regaring Intellectual and Moral I am not going to comment.

[youngdan]

You don't need to replace all TDs,

You need to get rid of them all. Excise the corruption completely.

If you are left wing then vote for left wing independents followed by lower preferences for the right wing independents and vice versa.

Otherwise it is over the waterfall with the same old rubbish as usual

[DO'C]

The South is rising.

There is a planned Protest march on December 4th in Cork City calling for change. It is, it appears, not led by any political group, just a motley crew of fed-up citizens. They're just getting going by the looks of it, but it could well be a catalyst for some sustained movement towards 'another' option, if they get the numbers out.


http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=133903089991951

[C. Flower]

The South is rising.

There is a planned Protest march on December 4th in Cork City calling for change. It is, it appears, not led by any political group, just a motley crew of fed-up citizens. They're just getting going by the looks of it, but it could well be a catalyst for some sustained movement towards 'another' option, if they get the numbers out.


http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=133903089991951

Why so late ?

[ModestMouse]

You need to get rid of them all. Excise the corruption completely.

If you are left wing then vote for left wing independents followed by lower preferences for the right wing independents and vice versa.

Otherwise it is over the waterfall with the same old rubbish as usual

T'will be the waterfall for sure if voters have no option but to vote for one of the other infected political parties rather than the infected currently holding power.

As it stands I currently have no vote as I have no intention of voting for slightly less corrupt parties in order to out the total corruption of FF. I could do as you suggest and cast my vote for any independent Lefty candidate but unless there is an organised national swing towards Independent Lefties I will, in reality, be wasting my vote anyway.

We're 2 years into the current economic crisis and the political genius of this nation has not even bothered it's arse to offer voters an alternative to the protectionist party politics that have brought us to the brink of collapse. You can hardly blame the voters if they have no option but to vote for more of the same.

[Baron von Biffo]

Hi Baron
You make a valid point, but I honestly believe there is going to be a raft of Independents going forward for the next GE anyway. It will be seen as a way to attack All Partys. Furthermore, I believe that people will vote for them also. Again this will be to attack Mainstream Partys.

When we're in the polling booth should our minds be focussed on attacking the parties or trying to get the best government we can for the next 5 years?

So this discussion will not have any impact on that. But we should debate the What If scenario.
Your statement re Local v National is an excellent point, so what happens if we do get the raft?

We know what happens when independents hold the balance of power. Whether it's Tony Gregory or Jackie Healy Rae you get constituency first, country second. You get instability and erratic performance. Support for the government is based more on the last editorial in the local rag than any coherent, thought out plan.

Look at the current Dail. The independents and quasi independents had no problem signing a blank cheque for the bankers but they became apoplectic at the idea that they wouldn't be allowed to torture animals any more.

Regaring Intellectual and Moral I am not going to comment.