Bank Guarantee - Most Catastrophic Political Decision Taken in Post-War Europe.

[ang]

Joan Burton had a lot to say about withholding documents on bank guarantee and Anglo "back in the day"

Very quiet now though -

Deputy Burton said that the decision to release only one in four of the documents sought suggested that the Department of Finance was intent on continuing to draw a veil of secrecy over the events that led to the government decision to firstly put in place the bank guarantee scheme and the later decision to nationalise Anglo.

http://www.joanburton.ie/economy-job...ded-in-secrecy

[PaddyJoe]

You can bet your last red cent that AIB and BOI took very detailed notes that night

[PaddyJoe]

There's an important point about Kenny's 'shredding' remark that I don't think has been highlighted.
He was referring specifically to documentation in the Department of the Taoiseach.
We know about the two releases of documentation from the DOF before and after Cardiff's appearances before the PAC.
Has there been any release of documentation from the Department of the Taoiseach relating to the bank guarantee and the events leading up to it?

[C. Flower]

There's an important point about Kenny's 'shredding' remark that I don't think has been highlighted.
He was referring specifically to documentation in the Department of the Taoiseach.
We know about the two releases of documentation from the DOF before and after Cardiff's appearances before the PAC.
Has there been any release of documentation from the Department of the Taoiseach relating to the bank guarantee and the events leading up to it?

Good question. Do you know if there was a Dept. of the Taoiseach civil servant in tow with Cowen on that night ?

[MPB]

Good question. Do you know if there was a Dept. of the Taoiseach civil servant in tow with Cowen on that night ?

Anybody remember David Doyle?

David was the Sec Gen in the Dept of Finance on the night of the bank guarantee.

David was in Govt buildings on the 29th Sept 2009. David retired early in January 2010, just after Anglo was nationalised. It is rumoured that David was totally against including Anglo in the guarantee.

Anybody considered asking David?

Does David live at the top of Everest or is he carrying some sort of disease that only journalists can get?

[PaddyJoe]

Good question. Do you know if there was a Dept. of the Taoiseach civil servant in tow with Cowen on that night ?

Secretary General of the Dept of the Taoiseach was Dermot McCarthy at the time. I presume he was there that night:

Mr Kenny revealed that there was no actual file in the Department of the Taoiseach on the decision taken that fateful night in September 2008.

However, the Coalition hasn't initiated any investigation into the whereabouts of the file and can't say if former department secretary general Dermot McCarthy was ever even asked about the decision.

Mr Kenny said there was "no file in the Department of the Taoiseach" on the decision. He said the file may have been "either shredded or has been disposed of or dispatched of".

"(There is) no evidence of the discussion that took place," he said.

Later on, however, Mr Kenny's spokesman had no evidence to back up Mr Kenny's claim that the file had been shredded.

"He was hypothesising," the spokesman said.

"If there was (a file) we would have a lot of answers to a lot of

Remarkably, there was no actual investigation conducted by the Coalition on the existence of the file either.

"Whether there was or there wasn't (a file), there isn't now. I don't know what has happened in relation to finding a particular file," the spokesman said.

"Upon taking up office, there was an effort to find out what happened that night. There is no file in the Department of An Taoiseach in relation to the bank guarantee."

When questioned if Mr McCarthy or former Department of Finance secretary general Kevin Cardiff were asked about the decision when the Government took office, the spokesman said: "I don't know."

Mr McCarthy and Mr Cardiff have since moved on from their positions

So we're as wise as we were before. Except obviously Enda Kenny thinks it very peculiar that that the new government didn't find any smoking guns when they took over
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...d-3137484.html

[Dr. FIVE]

Honohan says Fianna Fáil had had the best part of six months to put measures in place before Lehman/guarantee

http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/H...7-937b63318665

[C. Flower]

Honohan says Fianna Fáil had had the best part of six months to put measures in place before Lehman/guarantee

http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/H...7-937b63318665

A dig at Cardiff, who headed up the group charged with monitoring bank stability? I still think the real canary in the coalmine was that that group acknowledged that European banks would not lend to any Irish banks from 2007 - US banks were slower to cop on.

While this fact was minuted by Cardiff, there is no indication that it came as a surprise. It was not queried. I believe that Cardiff et all knew quite well that the banks were under the water line from at least 2007.

What was it that McCreery said recently ? - it was almost a norm in his day to allow Irish banks to trade insolvent at times.

When Jonathan Sugarman started to kick up about liquidity breaches in the IFSC the only reaction was to sit on this information and keep it out of the public domain.

When there was anxiety, the Irish Government's reaction was to try to get one dodgy bank to prop up another, by shifting funds around.

I guess that it was blatant in Ireland, but not that different in the rest of Europe.

Ireland, as the most open economy in Europe, heated up the most, and blew up amongst the earliest.

[DCon]

McGuinness smells a rat

If only FG/LAB had not elbowed Cardiff aside

Kevin Cardiff, the department's then secretary general who was in charge of banking during the boom, has claimed that he had "no formal meetings" with the Wright commission and he kept no notes of informal ones. The department admits its records show Mr Cardiff was due to meet Mr Wright on both August 9, 2010, and August 10, 2010, but has no records of what may have been said.

"It is totally beyond credibility that no records of these meetings exist," Mr McGuinness said. "These were high-level meetings relating to the biggest decisions in the State's history. We are expected to believe that Kevin Cardiff was the head of banking, and no notes. Brian Lenihan was the Minister for Finance and we're told there are no notes.

"Brian Cowen was the Taoiseach and we are told there are no notes. Someone somewhere has a record of those meetings.

"When Kevin Cardiff was before the Pac, he was able to recall documents and emails instantly before our eyes to do with the €3.6bn error and redact sections. It is not credible that notes or records don't exist, or at least did exist at some stage," he said.

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...s-3237040.html

[DCon]

What the hell is this? Are they really saying that because people may have told lies in public before, that they cannot be now forced to tell the truth/appear before a toothless inquiry?

Efforts to set up a banking inquiry have been stalled after a legal warning to the Government that witnesses at hearings may be "compromised" by public comments they made previously.

Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howlin yesterday revealed the dilemma for an inquiries system and said there were issues preparing legislation for an Oireachtas committee of inquiries.

The Government is keen to establish an inquiry into the banking crisis after failing to pass the Oireachtas inquiries referendum last year.

Asked about progress being made on establishing such a banking inquiry yesterday, Mr Howlin told TDs that legal advice had stalled the legislation on setting up such a probe.

There were some final concerns about the legislation to be handled "so people are not compromised by utterances in advance", he told the Public Accounts Committee.

Asked to clarify his comments by the Irish Examiner afterwards, Mr Howlin said that the legal advice on problems with witnesses had come from the Attorney General’s office.

He said while preparing the legislation for an inquiry system, it had emerged that anything previously said by a potential witness might compromise their appearance at a committee.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...rs-210627.html

[Baron von Biffo]

What the hell is this? Are they really saying that because people may have told lies in public before, that they cannot be now forced to tell the truth/appear before a toothless inquiry?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...rs-210627.html

We should be very afraid of an Oireachtas committee investigating these matters. Every member of the committee will have an interest in securing a particular outcome before a word of evidence is heard. There's a dearth of competence in the current Dail.

And does anyone think that the unedifying spectacle at the PAC during the week of a TD launching a tirade against a person before the committee while the chairman sat watching in silence reflected creditably on Oireachtas committees?

[EMUII]

What the hell is this? Are they really saying that because people may have told lies in public before, that they cannot be now forced to tell the truth/appear before a toothless inquiry?






http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...rs-210627.html

They'll feign outrage at this and say there's nothing they can do.... unless, we have another referendum on giving Oireachtas Committees more powers. As mentioned, committees are ok as a talking shop, but if there is something more serious suspected, we have the Gardai to look into it.... committees should not be investigating Oireachtas members or civil servants.

We don't need any more Tribunals of Inquiry either as they are just set up to ensure nothing incriminating comes out of them.... no other reason.

[DCon]

We don't need any more Tribunals of Inquiry either as they are just set up to ensure nothing incriminating comes out of them.... no other reason.

Which is exactly what the vested interests will want in this case

[DCon]

Do we need a new committee for this?

The proposed Oireachtas banking inquiry will likely be held by a new committee, according to a source familiar with developments.

There has been a turf war between the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) and the Finance Committee over who would hold the inquiry into the causes of the banking crisis. A source says that an inquiry will most likely be held over the first six months of 2013, but a new committee will be formed to conduct the inquiry. Each political party in the Dáil would be able to nominate a member to that committee.

The scope of the inquiry also has to be agreed. The two options are an inquiry that is narrowly focused around the decision by the Fianna Fáil/Green Party government to introduce the state guarantee of the banks in September 2008.

The other option would be a more far-reaching probe into the causes of the banking crisis and the consequences of the bank guarantee.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...be-211200.html

[Baron von Biffo]

Do we need a new committee for this?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...be-211200.html

In short, no.

This isn't something that a committee of politicians should be investigating because the members will all have a vested interest in it.