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Thread: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

  1. #46
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    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    I think the Federation should include France. Like ... what is wrong with France? Cheap wine, beautiful countryside, and Cactus seems to like their poetry. France should definitely be included.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    I think the Federation should include France. Like ... what is wrong with France? Cheap wine, beautiful countryside, and Cactus seems to like their poetry. France should definitely be included.
    Portugal would seem like an obvious partner, just at the moment.

  3. #48

    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Portugal would seem like an obvious partner, just at the moment.
    Very true, connections are being made with the united left in the other countries under threat from IMF/EU austerity, Portugal, Italy and Greece have definatly been made contact with in hopes of Europe wide action.

    Of course France should be included in a federation, it is an internationalist concept, it excludes no current state. All this mention of "socialist states" is a bit of an oxymoron, as the Marxist tradition of a socialist society would be defined by its lack of "state" structure.

    I totally agree that this sort of arguement is ridiculous and part of the reason I am not part of any specific left faction. Another reason this debate is fairly ridiculous is because your debating the semantics of the very end of a process that may take generations at a time when we are being attacked from all sides by the capitalist elite. The retardation of this frame of mind is mind boggling. Thankfully with the advent of the ULA, non party Marxists are springing from the woodwork and hopefully this disease of left sectarianism will be cured... bit of a tangent there.

    (sorry for not responding to the other intresting questions asked there, I'l try respond with my understanding later)

    PS. Congrats on forming a forum where this can be discussed without turning into a senior infants name calling match!

  4. #49
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    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kildare North View Post
    Very true, connections are being made with the united left in the other countries under threat from IMF/EU austerity, Portugal, Italy and Greece have definatly been made contact with in hopes of Europe wide action.

    Of course France should be included in a federation, it is an internationalist concept, it excludes no current state. All this mention of "socialist states" is a bit of an oxymoron, as the Marxist tradition of a socialist society would be defined by its lack of "state" structure.

    I totally agree that this sort of arguement is ridiculous and part of the reason I am not part of any specific left faction. Another reason this debate is fairly ridiculous is because your debating the semantics of the very end of a process that may take generations at a time when we are being attacked from all sides by the capitalist elite. The retardation of this frame of mind is mind boggling. Thankfully with the advent of the ULA, non party Marxists are springing from the woodwork and hopefully this disease of left sectarianism will be cured... bit of a tangent there.

    (sorry for not responding to the other intresting questions asked there, I'l try respond with my understanding later)

    PS. Congrats on forming a forum where this can be discussed without turning into a senior infants name calling match!
    Thanks for that. I look forward to plenty of fruitful discussions.

    I agree with you that the practical job of building a trans Europe (and wider) alliance is far more relevant - with the purpose of combatting "austerity" and campaigning for public control of the main infrastructural, energy and manufacturing functions and of course ensuring the population is properly fed - not something that can be taken for granted any more. There was a demonstration last September that was called to bring people out all over Europe on the same day - ICTU decided not to demonstrate but to have a "photo opportunity" with appropriately yellow balloons. If we leave it the current office holders, it won't happen.

    Buddha - I agree about the need for a united front. At the same time, I think its healthy for issues of programme and policy need to be thrashed out and made very clear.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kildare North View Post

    Of course France should be included in a federation ...
    So why aren't they? That's what I want to know.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  6. #51

    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    So why aren't they? That's what I want to know.
    Well seeing as the goal is international global socialism i thought that was implied. I think, must reiterate that im not representitive of the SP, that the idea of a federation of the western atlantic isles is just the most logical first step on a long process, not the last. If they were to include France in the list then by logic they would have to list every country in europe/the world or else some other person would come a long and dig up a semantical argument until there was no countries left to list.

    I dont think its set in stone, should a time arise where a federation with France would be most logical first step Im sure they would advocate that. It is not based on anything historical or romantic, pure logic. In fact I wouldn't be suprised if the programme was updated in the near future to advocate much closer cooperation with the other austerity riddled states like Portugal etc. Unfortunatly none of them are an industrial hub like Germany or England (or even your beloved France ) who have the infrastructure required for the running of such a community.

  7. #52
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    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kildare North View Post
    I think, must reiterate that im not representitive of the SP, that the idea of a federation of the western atlantic isles is just the most logical first step on a long process, not the last.
    I don't understand why they are not included in the first step. They are connected to England by the Channel tunnel, they have a lot of industry and a great working class history. I think it is big mistake to exclude them in the first step. Personally, I'd rather have them than Scotland which is kinda OK but then you have those Rangers supporters.

    Is it because they speak French? Is that why they are being blanked?
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  8. #53
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    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    I'm not expecting an answer to this from any non-P member, but - question.

    In the event of revolution in the UK, and a workers' state, I would presume that one of the first things to be done would be to withdraw the British army and secret police (presumably dissolved in any case) from Ireland and hand over all Irish intelligence files and any secret agreements with Irish politicians to wikileaks and the Irish media .... ?

    Am I wrong to presume that ?

  9. #54
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    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    I'd imagine the day the UK tumbles is only a couple of days before we do. The Irish capitalist system would meltdown over night. As would many, many capitalists states really.

  10. #55
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    Default Re: Joe Higgins The Red John Redmond? Socialist Party and Nationalism, are they unionists?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I'm not expecting an answer to this from any non-P member, but - question.

    In the event of revolution in the UK, and a workers' state, I would presume that one of the first things to be done would be to withdraw the British army and secret police (presumably dissolved in any case) from Ireland and hand over all Irish intelligence files and any secret agreements with Irish politicians to wikileaks and the Irish media .... ?

    Am I wrong to presume that ?
    I imagine that if there was a revolutionary situation in the UK (on the mainland) the army would be withdrawn from the North asap to prop up the régime on the mainland. And as unspecific said, the capitalist state here would probably tumble within a couple of days of a successful revolution in the UK.
    Нооруз пиээ пурылыа выиттыа


    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
    Pat Rabitte, 1987

    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
    Michael Noonan, November 2010

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