September 11th: lest we forget

[Cáthasaigh]

It should require no more thought as the facts are evident proven and well known. 9/11 was used as a legitimization of war mongering and war mongering has led to collapse of Western capitalism leading not to mpre democracy but the rise of potential totalitarian threats to the very country that decided to fly the democracy banner in Iraq
The USA

All the more reason to consider the precursors and blatant posturing by those responsible; 'ordo ab chao' after all. If we are to have any say in what emerges from the manufactured chaos then we need to know our enemy.

[People Korps]

All the more reason to consider the precursors and blatant posturing by those responsible; 'ordo ab chao' after all. If we are to have any say in what emerges from the manufactured chaos then we need to know our enemy.

True. I stand corrected

[C. Flower]

37th anniversary of the death of the "parliamentary road to socialism."

Hadn't it died long before that ?

[Sam Lord]

Hadn't it died long before that ?

Many still had illusions ....

[C. Flower]

Many still had illusions ....

Many still do.

But for anyone who studied it, I'd have thought that Russia in 1917 on the one hand and Germany on the other was enough demonstration of the does and don'ts in analysis of the State.

Sadly, it seems that the notion of police forces as "workers in uniform" still seems to have some currency around here, even in heads liable to be cracked open by them.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Many still do.

But for anyone who studied it, I'd have thought that Russia in 1917 on the one hand and Germany on the other was enough demonstration of the does and don'ts in analysis of the State.

Sadly, it seems that the notion of police forces as "workers in uniform" still seems to have some currency around here, even in heads liable to be cracked open by them.

Sorry to take this off topic but I want to set the record straight as I'm one of the posters your referring to cactus: many rank and file gardaí could be appealed to on a class basis- look at the level of opposition to the bank bailouts in the GRA for example. Obviously they remain 'armed bodies of men' whose chief task is protection of the bourgeoisie's private property, but the lesson's of Chile and Germnay are that accommodations with the leaders of the armed forces are impossible: the Kiel mutiny and the Raterepublik had large numbers of state personnel involved in them, not all of them conscripts, and in Portugal in the 1970's radicalised junior army officers formed one of the key bases for the Revolution. This doesn't imply faith in the gardaí as a progressive force (which is obviously an idiotic proposition) just that socialists should try and split the state and its personnel along class lines.

[C. Flower]

Sorry to take this off topic but I want to set the record straight as I'm one of the posters your referring to cactus: many rank and file gardaí could be appealed to on a class basis- look at the level of opposition to the bank bailouts in the GRA for example. Obviously they remain 'armed bodies of men' whose chief task is protection of the bourgeoisie's private property, but the lesson's of Chile and Germnay are that accommodations with the leaders of the armed forces are impossible: the Kiel mutiny and the Raterepublik had large numbers of state personnel involved in them, not all of them conscripts, and in Portugal in the 1970's radicalised junior army officers formed one of the key bases for the Revolution. This doesn't imply faith in the gardaí as a progressive force (which is obviously an idiotic proposition) just that socialists should try and split the state and its personnel along class lines.

Thanks or responding to the poke. For every example you can find of non-conscript armed forces supporting social revolution, there are thousands of cases of working class movements being driven back by force used by the State. Kiel surely is an example of it, as it was part of a revolutionary rising that stopped WW1 and in which the Bolsheviks came to power.

The Wiki entry on Kiel is interesting, but fails to mention that the SPD ordered the murder of Luxembourg and Liebnecht.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...918%E2%80%9319

Personally, I don't think it's off topic at all. We need to learn everything we can from what happened in Chile.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Thanks or responding to the poke. For every example you can find of non-conscript armed forces supporting social revolution, there are thousands of cases of working class movements being driven back by force used by the State. Kiel surely is an example of it, as it was part of a revolutionary rising that stopped WW1 and in which the Bolsheviks came to power.

The Wiki entry on Kiel is interesting, but fails to mention that the SPD ordered the murder of Luxembourg and Liebnecht.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...918%E2%80%9319

Personally, I don't think it's off topic at all. We need to learn everything we can from what happened in Chile.

I agree with your point about state forces: however, we're in a totally different period now so we shouldn't take too dogmatic an approach to rank and file personnel

[C. Flower]

I agree with your point about state forces: however, we're in a totally different period now so we shouldn't take too dogmatic an approach to rank and file personnel

What period do you think we're in, and do you think that the role of the State forces has changed ?

I think the term "rank and file personnel" is misleading - there are very few conscripts in modern armies - the State has learned the lesson about professionalising and even privatising armed forces.

If you look at the British army in Ireland, I remember reading about one or two who "came over" in Ireland, but that was it.

[antiestablishmentarian]

What period do you think we're in, and do you think that the role of the State forces has changed ?

I think the term "rank and file personnel" is misleading - there are very few conscripts in modern armies - the State has learned the lesson about professionalising and even privatising armed forces.

If you look at the British army in Ireland, I remember reading about one or two who "came over" in Ireland, but that was it.

We're in an economic crisis which is unprecedented in the history the state. As for 'rank and file' personnel, I know a couple of people in the army who are really annoyed with the way things have gone and are unsure whether they'd defend an FF govt if ordered to. And on your last point during the Limerick Soviet they had to ship a regiment of troops back from Limerick (I think they were Scottish) for fraternising with the strikers.

[C. Flower]

We're in an economic crisis which is unprecedented in the history the state. As for 'rank and file' personnel, I know a couple of people in the army who are really annoyed with the way things have gone and are unsure whether they'd defend an FF govt if ordered to. And on your last point during the Limerick Soviet they had to ship a regiment of troops back from Limerick (I think they were Scottish) for fraternising with the strikers.

Upheavals always take place in crises. What's different about this one that has an effect on your analysis of the State?

There has been a lot of reportage in the last 6 months of riot/crowd control training and the army was been reported as on standby for a recent event. It's most likely that your friends will either do what their told or find themselves in the chokey. They will be filled with religion and stories about dissidents. Sending troops and police from one region to another is routine way of managing this issue in armies and police forces.

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst would be my advice.

Did you follow the Thailand thread ?

[antiestablishmentarian]

Upheavals always take place in crises. What's different about this one that has an effect on your analysis of the State?

There has been a lot of reportage in the last 6 months of riot/crowd control training and the army was been reported as on standby for a recent event. It's most likely that your friends will either do what their told or find themselves in the chokey. They will be filled with religion and stories about dissidents. Sending troops and police from one region to another is routine way of managing this issue in armies and police forces.

Hope the best but prepare for the worst would be my advice.

Did you follow the Thailand thread ?

I haven't changed my analysis of the State or its role (I learnt about that in Rossport): I just think the possibility of frission is greater than in the past precisely because the default threatens the state itself and the states ability to maintain an apparatus and that we should actively try and split that by an appeal on class lines- in Greece cops went on strike too for example

[C. Flower]

I haven't changed my analysis of the State or its role (I learnt about that in Rossport): I just think the possibility of frission is greater than in the past precisely because the default threatens the state itself and the states ability to maintain an apparatus and that we should actively try and split that by an appeal on class lines- in Greece cops went on strike too for example

Just so long as you're not counting on it.....

[antiestablishmentarian]

Just so long as you're not counting on it.....

I'm not: as I said above in the post where I wrote that relying on the gardaí as a progressive force was idiotic

[Starbuck]

On an aside - I worked on an aircraft lease with LanChile in 1989. We were based in Santiago. A really beautiful city. Pinochet was still in power and had just announced he was going to hold democratic elections. Nobody seriously believed him, perhaps he didn't believe it himself (he later went ahead, and lost....perhaps he actually believed the people would vote for him).

Anyhow, one of the senior bosses in Lan Chile became quite friendly with us Paddies, and (being well connected) asked us if we'd like to have a personal tour of La Moneda (The Presidential Palace). We were gobsmacked, and of course said YES.

So, a week later we got the full private guided tour. The building was bombed to a shell during the coup, but had been fully restored. We were taken everywhere, including the assembly room where Pinochets 'cabinet' sat around a long oval table, and he had a sort of throne set up (one of the crew sat in it....the cheek).
Later we were escorted to see El Presidentes private office, and they apologised profusely that he was 'away' or we'd have been introduced. I remember there was a coffee table with a book of photographs of JP2's visit in pride of place.

Overall a creepy kind of place.

The city was not just beautiful by the way - it was very safe. All petty crime was punished by 'dissapearance' it seemed.

Some of our crew got friendly with some Irish nuns at a local orphanage. The kids were mostly the children of dissapeared political activists.
One day our senior friend from Lan Chile came to the hotel to tell us the secret police were not happy that we were fraternising with 'trouble-makers' (the nuns and orphans) and would we please stop going there immediately. They were apparently watching us!

It was quite a place. Quite an experience.