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Thread: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry Report

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by mutley View Post
    then surely it should be those who gave the orders that should be facing prosecution?

    I wonder is the timing of the 2 billion to victims of PIRA victims, an attempt to soften the blow for Unionists, that the bloody Sunday victims were unlawfully murdered?
    But that's the big question. Who gave the orders ? Jackson ? If he did you can forget it because he went on to be the big cheese!!

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    The other ancient lesson about any army is also on show ... they'll hang a couple of squaddies out to dry and the officers who did the old army trick of slamming a boot down to countermand a verbal order at a briefing will walk away.

    Bets on the highest rank responsible going no higher than a Non-Commissioned Officer?

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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    But that's the big question. Who gave the orders ? Jackson ? If he did you can forget it because he went on to be the big cheese!!
    These are the questions that will not be answered.
    Judging by the response at the Guild Hall, The relatives are happy, and that is the main thing.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by mutley View Post
    These are the questions that will not be answered.
    Judging by the response at the Guild Hall, The relatives are happy, and that is the main thing.


    Exactly. Personally I wouldn't ask the British for anything, but that's just me.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    I worked with an old (55 yrs old ) para when in North Africa in the '80's and he said that Paras don't do anything without having been given orders. He had experience in Cyprus of having been told to beat old men , women and children. His take on Bloody Sunday was simple... they were told to shoot.
    I had never forgotten an incident with para's back in ealy's 1990's as we were travelling up to Donegal in a coach. There was only 4 men in the coach and the rest were women. Once we arrived at the checkpoint, one of the para's entered the bus and saw only 4 men in the coach. He was suspicious and spoke to his commanding officer.

    Then all 4 men including me were ordered out of the bus and was told to bring any bags out in the open. Luckily, i just spoke to one of the soldiers that i am deaf. Then after a discussion with a commanding officer, i was allowed to return to the coach.

    What i saw next was horrible, the para's threw everywhere all their clothes and stuff out of three (3) men's bag. Then they told the three men to collect their clothes/stuff and put them back in the bag. I was incandant and full of rage with the para's & called them various names.One of the women in the coach prevented me from going further. She said to me be careful because one of her friends in Fermanagh was raped by a para in boozing spree. They might do that to any women in the coach. So i had to stop and think of others.

    It was absolutely disgraceful and sheer arrogance from the para's. They knew that they can do what they want. They also knew that they would be backed by their commanding officer in any situation.
    Last edited by disability student; 15-06-2010 at 04:08 PM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    The report says the killings were not pre-meditated, and yet acknowledges that the soldiers were liars. I'm not sure how the conclusion that it was not pre-meditated can be safely arrived at.
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Widgery Report being ripped up outside the Guildhall. I'm glad that the relatives feel vindicated.

    These were life changing events that profoundly changed the way that people saw the world, politics and social reality and that influenced their actions permanently.

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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by disability student View Post
    I had never forgotten an incident with para's back in ealy's 1990's as we were travelling up to Donegal in a coach. There was only 4 men in the coach and the rest were women. Once we arrived at the checkpoint, one of the para's entered the bus and saw only 4 men in the coach. He was suspicious and spoke to his commanding officer.

    Then all 4 men including me were ordered out of the bus and was told to bring any bags out in the open. Luckily, i just spoke to one of the soldiers that i am deaf. Then after a discussion with a commanding officer, i was allowed to return to the coach.

    What i saw next was horrible, the para's threw everywhere all their clothes and stuff out of three (3) men's bag. Then they told the three men to collect their clothes/stuff and put them back in the bag. I was incandant and full of rage with the para's & called them various names.One of the women in the coach prevented me from going further. She said to me be careful because one of her friends in Fermanagh was raped by a para in boozing spree. They might do that to any women in the coach. So i had to stop and think of others.

    It was absolutely disgraceful and sheer arrogance from the para's. They knew that they can do what they want. They also knew that they would be backed by their commanding officer in any situation.
    The para I knew told me a story about how he'd been told to put his rifle gainst a wall and beat an old man. He said that he kept saying to the old man "stay down stay down " but the old man kept getting up! As long as the old man kept getting up, he couldn't stop hitting him as the officer was watching.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger View Post
    The report says the killings were not pre-meditated, and yet acknowledges that the soldiers were liars. I'm not sure how the conclusion that it was not pre-meditated can be safely arrived at.
    There's not much doubt that it begins and ends with Jackson. "Premeditated" is a bit strong for an order probably given just before they were let loose, and carries implications of something hatched in Westminister.
    You just need to read Norman Dixons "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence' to see that you don't need conspiracies to explain things.

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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    There's not much doubt that it begins and ends with Jackson. "Premeditated" is a bit strong for an order probably given just before they were let loose, and carries implications of something hatched in Westminister.
    You just need to read Norman Dixons "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence' to see that you don't need conspiracies to explain things.

    It's classic Kenya, or Cyprus, or Aden, teach the natives a lesson. Free Derry was a standing affront to the sovereignty of the Crown, and a classic colonial 'lesson' was served. I have very little doubt, though it can't be proved, that the Paras were deployed that day for that very reason. The bullets fired from the city walls above by the Royal Anglians only tend to confirm me in the suspicion that this had been prepared for.
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    I had the honour of speaking with a military historian (Crimean War specialist) and an extraordinary man. He died unfortunately last year but I remember having a pint with him and discussing various bits of military history and he told me a story from when he was a 20 year old subaltern with the Dragoons I think in India in the last days of the Raj.

    He said in all his time as an officer he only had to give one order in anger and that was when a large and fairly belligerent crowd started gathering and the stones started to come over.

    He formed his men up and as he related it himself he gave his one order given in anger;

    "F-f-f-fix bayonets!"

    Luckily the crowd panicked and dispersed in rapid fashion and he was able to rejoin his company.

    But something similar happened which kicked off the violence in India and there again it was down to an infantry Major who panicked and ordered his men to open fire on a crowd. Exact same thing as Bloody Sunday.

    It was weird talking to someone who had pretty much been in that situation and got lucky.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan View Post
    I had the honour of speaking with a military historian (Crimean War specialist) and an extraordinary man. He died unfortunately last year but I remember having a pint with him and discussing various bits of military history and he told me a story from when he was a 20 year old subaltern with the Dragoons I think in India in the last days of the Raj.

    He said in all his time as an officer he only had to give one order in anger and that was when a large and fairly belligerent crowd started gathering and the stones started to come over.

    He formed his men up and as he related it himself he gave his one order given in anger;

    "F-f-f-fix bayonets!"

    Luckily the crowd panicked and dispersed in rapid fashion and he was able to rejoin his company.

    But something similar happened which kicked off the violence in India and there again it was down to an infantry Major who panicked and ordered his men to open fire on a crowd. Exact same thing as Bloody Sunday.

    It was weird talking to someone who had pretty much been in that situation and got lucky.
    Except, of course, there was no panic on Bloody Sunday. The situation was no different than they had experienced many times over the previous year. The manner of the killings of Jim Wray, shot in the back on the ground, already having been mortally wounded, or the deaths of Barney McGuigan and Paddy Doherty, described in my earlier post, clearly show cool, calm, methodical executions, not panicked over-reaction or soldiers 'gone berserk'. They were cool as a cucumber, almost done as if for sport, and again indicate premeditation.
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  13. #43
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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Yes. I wouldn't attempt to portray Bloody Sunday as anything other than what it was ... a load of squaddies pump-primed by officers and let loose on civilians. It should never happen and if such a situation was to arise then the discipline should come from the army.

    There's no doubt in my mind at all that there was intent that day to go deliberately over the top and I think it was a reflection of the level of panic among middle level and senior officers that discipline broke down. Its a stain on the British army and not the last one of that kind either.

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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger View Post
    Except, of course, there was no panic on Bloody Sunday. The situation was no different than they had experienced many times over the previous year. The manner of the killings of Jim Wray, shot in the back on the ground, already having been mortally wounded, or the deaths of Barney McGuigan and Paddy Doherty, described in my earlier post, clearly show cool, calm, methodical executions, not panicked over-reaction or soldiers 'gone berserk'. They were cool as a cucumber, almost done as if for sport, and again indicate premeditation.
    I have no doubt that you're right and my personal view is that it was a cabinet level decision and authorised by the P.M. Of course, other explanations are possible, but highly unlikely. As Lapsed said, the Paras are a disciplined force. There was nothing chaotic about the demeanour of the way they went in.

    The sheer ready brass-neck lying after it happened also says a lot. It was meant to teach a lesson, drive people off the streets and marginalise resistance, but it was also important to them to limit and contain the outrage in Britain.

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    Default Re: Bloody Sunday - Publication of the Saville Enquiry

    A bit long winded for me but Niall Ó Dochartaigh via Slugger, has allowed free access to an academic article on Bloody Sunday


    http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/sec...text=713240928
    This article provides an alternative interpretation of the political and military decision-making process, challenging key elements in the analysis in the existing literature. By contrast with existing accounts, it argues that the Bloody Sunday operation was a calculated plan devised at a very high level to stage a massive and unprecedented confrontation that would disrupt and shatter an established policy of security force restraint in the city of Derry. It argues further that the operation that day emerged from an intense internal struggle to shape security policy that reflected deep divisions within the security forces
    ,

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