Pensions....Pensions....Pensions

[Controller]

IF I run a business, and the business is destroyed by my bad decisions, I would have thought that my pension nest egg goes as well. Why has this not happened for Irish Nationwide & Anglo (well Seanie & Michael)?

[DCon]

I think they had a pension pot that was funded with (tax favourable) hard cash during the good years.

The companies do not pay their pensions as a going concern.

[C. Flower]

IF I run a business, and the business is destroyed by my bad decisions, I would have thought that my pension nest egg goes as well. Why has this not happened for Irish Nationwide & Anglo (well Seanie & Michael)?

The pension doesn't come from the business - and a lot of people lost out in the recession when share prices fell. But there does seem to be an attitude (or is it the law) that pensions are untouchable.

Up until a couple of years ago, there were unlimited tax benefits to people who put their profits into pensions. Millions were put into pensions at the end of every tax year.

[TotalMayhem]

IF I run a business, and the business is destroyed by my bad decisions, I would have thought that my pension nest egg goes as well. Why has this not happened for Irish Nationwide & Anglo (well Seanie & Michael)?

I think, my friend, you overestimate your own systemic importance, otherwise you wouldn't even bother to ask this question.

[DCon]

Pensions tax relief cost the State 2.9 BN in 2006

Estimate of the cost of tax and PRSI reliefs for private pension provision 2006
Estimated costs €million
Employees’ Contributions to approved Superannuation Schemes 540
Employers’ Contributions to approved Superannuation Schemes 120
Estimated cost of exemption of employers’ contributions from employee BIK 510
Exemption of investment income and gains of approved Superannuation Funds 1,200
Retirement Annuity Contracts (RACs) 380
Personal Retirement Savings Accounts (PRSAs) 120
Estimated cost of tax relief on “tax-free” lump sum payments 130
Estimated cost of PRSI and Health Levy relief on employee and employer contributions 220
Gross cost of tax relief 3,220
Estimated tax yield from payment of pension benefits 320
Net cost of tax relief 2,900

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?...fund#g1128.0.r

[Baron von Biffo]

The current media hype about politician's pensions exposes, unwittingly no doubt, the scandalous way private pensions are provided.

Take the story in the Examiner today about Gump's pension for example. The claim is made that if he retires in 2016 he will get a lump sum of €139k and an annual pension of €100k. According to the paper, the cost of providing this in a private pension would be €3,429,728.

In 2016 Gump will be 65 and the average life expectancy for a man is 76.8 years. But he's a robust looking gent so let's assume he'll live to 85.

Using the figures supplied he would receive a total of €2,139,000. That leaves €1,290,728 sitting in his pension pot for the benefit of the shareholders.

But that's not the full picture. The assumption there was that no interest would be paid. If the pension pot was invested in nice safe, conservative savings bonds from An Post it would attract 3.23% tax free. If we index link Gump's pension he would get, at today's inflation rate, a 1.6% per annum increase.

Looking at those numbers, by 2036 his annual pension would be €137,364 but his pension pot would now be €2,907,462.

His total benefit from the fund would be €2.6m but the provider would be left with €2.9m. And that's without allowing for all the charges that the pension company would have levied as the fund was accumulating.

Workers are being robbed blind by pension companies.

Examiner article.

Life expectancy.

An Post savings.

[Baron von Biffo]

So much for joined up government - On the one hand we have Burton trying to soften people up to pay into a government run pension scheme while on the other, Leo the Loon is telling the people who've don just that for all their working lives that they wont be getting the pension they were promised.

http://www.independent.ie/business/p...n-3339477.html

A fund that's only covered by legislation is open to looting at will by the government of the day. Anyone who bought into this scheme without a constitutional guarantee of the security of their pension would be mad.

I have to admit though that a part of me feels it would be poetic justice for some of the Celtic Kitten generation to get to retirement only to find their pensions gone given their support for impoverishing today's pensioners to pay their own mortgages.

[The Moth]

IF I run a business, and the business is destroyed by my bad decisions, I would have thought that my pension nest egg goes as well. Why has this not happened for Irish Nationwide & Anglo (well Seanie & Michael)?

AND why not the Public/Civil Service pensions also . They should be stopped pronto as Ireland Inc has derailed and is totally bust. The possibility raised by Leo today that public servant pensions are not secure in the future may scare a few sleeping civil servants into activity. Oops - Sorry Baron were you asleep!

[C. Flower]

Joan Burton has some kind of a plan for universal pensions.

I guess that we may be forced to pay in to private profits, as with "universal health rip off insurance"

[ang]

Joan Burton has some kind of a plan for universal pensions.

I guess that we may be forced to pay in to private profits, as with "universal health rip off insurance"

Its a rehash of a FF 2010 plan which was *delayed* until the economy recovered.

[Baron von Biffo]

AND why not the Public/Civil Service pensions also . They should be stopped pronto as Ireland Inc has derailed and is totally bust. The possibility raised by Leo today that public servant pensions are not secure in the future may scare a few sleeping civil servants into activity. Oops - Sorry Baron were you asleep!

Even a comatose PS worker would have learned the lesson of Lenny the Liar and understood what a dishonest politician can do to ones income.

[DCon]

So it turns out that there was an EU Directive regarding security of pensions.

FF ignored it and so has the present government. Net result being that that the Waterford Crystal workers have to be paid their pensions from the State. While this is great for the workers, it is not good for the State's budget (cost will be over 10,000,000 per year). We also have no way of knowing the other companies who are in this situation, or who will rush to be now, and what this may end up costing the State.

Successive government incompetence has failed to implement EU law, presumably in the hope that it would never be challenged.

The European case was taken by Unite under the 2008 EU Insolvency Directive, with the union arguing that the Irish government was obliged to protect employees after the company and its pension fund were insolvent.

A previous ruling by the European Court of Justice, in favour of English woman Carol Robins who sued the UK government over a similar pension situation, found that 49pc pension protection was insufficient and it was up to the government to improve the cover.

“The Irish government were party to that [UK] case,” Unite regional organiser Walter Cullen said after the ECJ decision, “but, at the time, the Irish government did absolutely nothing so when the company [Waterford Crystal] went into receivership in 2009, there was no pension protection. So Unite took the case to Europe.”

This morning’s decision by the ECJ could cost the government up to €280 million if full pension cover is provided to the former wormers.

http://www.independent.ie/business/p...-29221584.html

[Baron von Biffo]

So it turns out that there was an EU Directive regarding security of pensions.

FF ignored it and so has the present government. Net result being that that the Waterford Crystal workers have to be paid their pensions from the State. While this is great for the workers, it is not good for the State's budget (cost will be over 10,000,000 per year). We also have no way of knowing the other companies who are in this situation, or who will rush to be now, and what this may end up costing the State.

Successive government incompetence has failed to implement EU law, presumably in the hope that it would never be challenged.


http://www.independent.ie/business/p...-29221584.html

The TACA are extraordinarily restrictive (workers aren't bondholders after all) - double insolvency and only DB schemes covered.

[C. Flower]

For the monied classes in Ireland, "pensions" during the boom were a tax haven into which much of their taxable income could be shovelled and thus subject to tax exemptions. Much of the profits of the property boom went that way. At the same time, about a million people have no pension at all, and many in private schemes have little or none. The public sector have pensions into which they contribute, but are guaranteed to pay out, unlike many private pensions.

This all seems grossly and unjustifiable inequitable. It would make much more sense to provide a basic pension for everyone and if anyone wants to save more than that, and is able to, let them, but without any special reliefs or benefits.

[DCon]

We regularly here comparisons to other European nations when it suits government/oligarchy agenda.

I have never heard the government claim that pension provision in Ireland should equal that of our European neighbours. The norm in Europe is for all workers to be treated the same, regardless of whether they work in the private or public sector

Participation in the German state pension scheme is mandatory for all permanent employees in Germany.

The system is "pay as you go". This means that the contributions are deducted from your salary each month. Usually you won't even be asked, or perhaps even be aware that this is happening. It is all handled automatically by your employer. Check your payslip for the deduction labelled something like "RV-Beitrag". The "RV" stands for "Rentenversicherung" which literally translates to "retirement insurance".

The contribution rate is currently 19.5 percent of the gross salary (gross = total salary before tax). This contribution is shared equally between employee and employer. This means the employee pays 9.75% of their gross salary and the employer pays the same.

State pension benefits are paid out on retirement. This begins at age 65 for both males and females. You must have contributed into the system for at least 5 years in order to qualify for benefits.

The benefits paid out are about 70% of the average net income you earnt whilst working. The exact amount paid out depends on how much you put in and for how long. There are numerous other factors as well.

German state pensions


France

To receive a full pension you must have contributed for at least 160 ‘terms’ (meaning quarter-years), i.e. around 40 years, but there are plans to extend this to 42.5 or even 45 years. If you don’t qualify for a full pension, your pension is proportional to the number of terms you’ve contributed for, i.e. 1/160 of the full pension multiplied by the number of terms’ insurance.

A full pension is equal to 50 per cent of your average earnings in your 19 highest paid years (earnings are re-valued in line with inflation), which is progressively being increased to 25 years. Basic state pensions are automatically adjusted biannually in accordance with the national average wage.

France: Pensions, What do you have to pay in France?, The state employee pension scheme

Belgium

How much Belgian old age pension will you get?

The amount of your Belgian old age pension depends on:

the number of years you have worked in Belgium, and
the salary you earned each year.

The National Pensions Office (RVP) will look at your average wage in Belgium over the years. You will normally get a pension for a single person of around 60% of your average wage. If you have a partner who does not have any income, you will get around 75% of your average wage. This is known as a family pension. The RVP will convert the wages you received in the past to what they would be worth today. You can use the following formula to calculate your pension entitlement for each year:

http://www.svb.nl/int/en/bbz/pensioe.../rustpensioen/