Irish Economy Turns Another Corner - The Endgame is Now!

[Cassandra Syndrome]

+1

Teamwork is top of any recovery !!! and only then will the government fear the people

Exactly. No one person has all the solutions. Best to have a big group of people from all different schools of thought. Its surprising were common denominators and enlightenment for everyone can be found by arguing and cross referencing.

The trouble is the likes of the ESRI and other government think tanks fall back on Keynes and dated economic manuals to solve problems. It has failed, as Einstien said insanity is using the same failed method again, again and again.

[LeDroit]

Don't want change? What hole are you living in?

I work in the PS and I can tell you I am far from immune from the sh1t storm that had hit this country. I want change, plenty of it. I want to change the way I work, I want to save money, I want to do a better job and so do most people I work with.

What change do you have in mind for health service workers aside from what has happened to date?

Perhaps I could start working in a field and hold an umbrella over the trolley to save money?

That is about the level of the "reform", slashing spending across the board and not filling any post as it empties is not reform or positive change it is collapse.

There is a political movement doing what you want, its called the government.

I fully appreciate that PS workers have taken pain, the wage cuts and pension levies have hit some very hard. I have friends who, especially with the overtime ban, have seen their take home pay decimated.

However, there is an intransigence at the heart of the Unions that suggests what we have we hold in terms of job numbers. The formation of the HSE is a prime example. We were promised increased efficiency and reduced staff numbers when the health boards were rationalised. Instead we got a polygamy of dysfunction and profligacy. No one lost their job, instead they were paid for duplicating or simply doing SFA. Despite its obvious failure no one loses their job. And then there's the fixed wage agreements that prevent competition in many industries.

The unions protect that culture. That's the change I'm speaking of. The unions need to help or be removed.

[Xray]

I fully appreciate that PS workers have taken pain, the wage cuts and pension levies have hit some very hard. I have friends who, especially with the overtime ban, have seen their take home pay decimated.

However, there is an intransigence at the heart of the Unions that suggests what we have we hold in terms of job numbers. The formation of the HSE is a prime example. We were promised increased efficiency and reduced staff numbers when the health boards were rationalised. Instead we got a polygamy of dysfunction and profligacy. No one lost their job, instead they were paid for duplicating or simply doing SFA. Despite its obvious failure no one loses their job. And then there's the fixed wage agreements that prevent competition in many industries.

The unions protect that culture. That's the change I'm speaking of. The unions need to help or be removed.

Management and government run the health service, run it. I will not stand in the way of anyone doing the right thing. I have never seen something progressive stopped by the unions, test them try it. The unions are powerless and a pathetic excuse for a failure structure.

[LeDroit]

Management and government run the health service, run it. I will not stand in the way of anyone doing the right thing. I have never seen something progressive stopped by the unions, test them try it. The unions are powerless and a pathetic excuse for a failure structure.

Powerless? They got PS workers double inflation pay rises throughout the Celtic Tiger years. Despite the pay cuts, PS workers still get 'increments' which are basically pay rises for nothing. In a recession where the state borrows to pay them. Also the Labour Court at the behest of the unions recently reaffirmed that 'tenure' means a job for life. This effectively stated that PS workers cannot be made redundant, by law! The only option this cowardly govt have is then to place an embargo on recruitment so we can't get the people we need because we're stuck with the people we don't need or want. The unions, and their political wing Labour, should be showing leadership by negotiating a redundancy program as part of an overall re structuring and slimming down of our PS.

[C. Flower]

Powerless? They got PS workers double inflation pay rises throughout the Celtic Tiger years. Despite the pay cuts, PS workers still get 'increments' which are basically pay rises for nothing. In a recession where the state borrows to pay them. Also the Labour Court at the behest of the unions recently reaffirmed that 'tenure' means a job for life. This effectively stated that PS workers cannot be made redundant, by law! The only option this cowardly govt have is then to place an embargo on recruitment so we can't get the people we need because we're stuck with the people we don't need or want. The unions, and their political wing Labour, should be showing leadership by negotiating a redundancy program as part of an overall re structuring and slimming down of our PS.

I'm not at all persuaded that it makes any sense at the moment to sack anyone who's doing something useful and pay them for doing nothing.

We need to reassess and reprioritise services, with public sector workers and "customers" working together on that, and then shift the resources to where they are most needed.

Also to improve the way some services are provided, of course - again, the customers and people who do the job working together.

At the moment the senior people making the decisions are insulated by cash from the effects of poor public services.

[Xray]

Powerless? They got PS workers double inflation pay rises throughout the Celtic Tiger years. Despite the pay cuts, PS workers still get 'increments' which are basically pay rises for nothing. In a recession where the state borrows to pay them. Also the Labour Court at the behest of the unions recently reaffirmed that 'tenure' means a job for life. This effectively stated that PS workers cannot be made redundant, by law! The only option this cowardly govt have is then to place an embargo on recruitment so we can't get the people we need because we're stuck with the people we don't need or want. The unions, and their political wing Labour, should be showing leadership by negotiating a redundancy program as part of an overall re structuring and slimming down of our PS.

Well I dont really agree with you, but there will have to be a massive redundancy program because we simply have run out of money. There is no choice in the matter now. If it is voluntary the most employable will leave if it is not it will be nasty. I expect massive job loses soon particularly in health. Croke park allows for this.

[C. Flower]

Well I dont really agree with you, but there will have to be a massive redundancy program because we simply have run out of money. There is no choice in the matter now. If it is voluntary the most employable will leave if it is not it will be nasty. I expect massive job loses soon particularly in health. Croke park allows for this.

Straight onto the dole queue, more mortgage defaults.

Greece is following the IMF prescription and unemployment is rapidly catching up with ours.

[LeDroit]

I'm not at all persuaded that it makes any sense at the moment to sack anyone who's doing something useful and pay them for doing nothing.

The key words are 'doing something useful'. Hand on heart can you say everyone in the HSE is gainfully employed?

We need to reassess and reprioritise services, with public sector workers and "customers" working together on that, and then shift the resources to where they are most needed.

Also to improve the way some services are provided, of course - again, the customers and people who do the job working together.

Sounds like the kind of wooly speak straight out of the Croke Park 'agreement'. Nonsense and pointlessness all rolled into one.

If the country has to borrow to pay a person who is not productive that's charity. Is that your strategy for recovery?

[Xray]

The key words are 'doing something useful'. Hand on heart can you say everyone in the HSE is gainfully employed?



Sounds like the kind of wooly speak straight out of the Croke Park 'agreement'. Nonsense and pointlessness all rolled into one.

If the country has to borrow to pay a person who is not productive that's charity. Is that your strategy for recovery?

Like borrowing to fund pay rises in banks that don't lend money you mean?
There are problems and flaws where you point to but there are not nearly the most serious and they are not caused by some "vested" interests. They are there because of political failure and poor management. The pay rises during the boom had nothing to do with powerful unions and everything to do with Bertie getting re-elected the property price spiral in Dublin. Have you ever heard of unions willing agreeing to 20% pay reductions and jobs loses for members in any other country while at the same time signing up to work additional hours for few and out of hours without overtime payments? It is not my idea of a revolutionary union movement I have to say. If the unions and "vested interests" are the excuse they are a poor one.

[LeDroit]

Like borrowing to fund pay rises in banks that don't lend money you mean?
There are problems and flaws where you point to but there are not nearly the most serious and they are not caused by some "vested" interests. They are there because of political failure and poor management. The pay rises during the boom had nothing to do with powerful unions and everything to do with Bertie getting re-elected the property price spiral in Dublin. Have you ever heard of unions willing agreeing to 20% pay reductions and jobs loses for members in any other country while at the same time signing up to work additional hours for few and out of hours without overtime payments? It is not my idea of a revolutionary union movement I have to say. If the unions and "vested interests" are the excuse they are a poor one.

I'm genuinely not a trade unionist basher. I see the sacrifices that PS workers have endured and I honour their contribution. My beef is with 'Liberty' Hall's mentality which means they cannot conceive of equality with the rest of us when it comes to redundancies. They serve PS workers and therefore are a vested interest protecting an aristocracy in a republic.

On the issue of the bank bailout, I am utterly against it. I believe in the Free Market. The banks should have been left to fold while the govt bought the loan books and deposit books to protect investors and set up new banks. All subordinate debtors should be let swing and if deals were needed with others then they should have taken the haircut not us.

[jinnyjoe]

Seriously guys what EXACTLY would it take for us to achieve a General Election in Ireland?
Surely that's our first priority, those buckos need a quare shaking up and I would love to know how we all go about!!

[Xray]

There will be an election when there is one. Short of a national strike or the likes we will not effect the timing of an election. It wont be long now anyway.

[C. Flower]

Seriously guys what EXACTLY would it take for us to achieve a General Election in Ireland?
Surely that's our first priority, those buckos need a quare shaking up and I would love to know how we all go about!!

What are you, personally prepared to do?

I'm prepared to sit down in the street somewhere. Whether I would do it on my own is something I need to think about.

[Xray]

I'm genuinely not a trade unionist basher. I see the sacrifices that PS workers have endured and I honour their contribution. My beef is with 'Liberty' Hall's mentality which means they cannot conceive of equality with the rest of us when it comes to redundancies. They serve PS workers and therefore are a vested interest protecting an aristocracy in a republic.

On the issue of the bank bailout, I am utterly against it. I believe in the Free Market. The banks should have been left to fold while the govt bought the loan books and deposit books to protect investors and set up new banks. All subordinate debtors should be let swing and if deals were needed with others then they should have taken the haircut not us.

I don't feel they are doing much for me to be honest with ya. They manage rather represent me.

[jinnyjoe]

What are you, personally prepared to do?

I'm prepared to sit down in the street somewhere. Whether I would do it on my own is something I need to think about.

You won't be on your own C, I can imagine by now there would be several thousand with you including myself. It just takes a huge amount of publicity. Every dog has his day and we will surely have ours, come December the momentum for a huge outcry will surely be here. And as to the previous comment that the election will soon be here anyway. 2012 is not near enough, not near enough at all.