Irish Economy Turns Another Corner - The Endgame is Now!

[C. Flower]

Brian Lucey by twitter last night said Bond spreads had widened again in after hours trading.

A very bad week has been predicted for what is left of the ISEQ.It seems to me that last week was another turning point for the Irish economy and its not looking good.

The signs are
1. effective closure of all banks in Ireland except BoI and Anglo Irish - crisis for firms who depended on loans from closing banks. BoI and Allied Irish in zombie/bloodsucker state.
2. Irish sovereign borrowing costs and CDS costs at record level
3. consensus that there is a US double dip
4. growing awareness that NAMA will not "work"
5. collapse of the hotel sector and shift of the cost onto taxpayer
6. increasing unemployment in last CSO figures - thousands more banking and construction jobs certain to go.
7. Admission by Honohan that Anglo Irish must be wound up
8. End of the international markets belief that Irish Gov. knows what it's doing following Honohan warning on the banks.
9. Failure to solve fiscal crisis by ending waste at the same time as damaging the economy through ill-judged cuts.
10. Numerous signs that people simply can't afford to pay higher utility charges, taxes and levies.
11. Increasing numbers of distressed mortgages.
12. Price increases in essentials, including food and heat.

All this looks like a downward spiral heftily contributed to by Fianna Fail policy and actions since 2000. As at the beginning of the crisis in 2008, our Government is absent on leave. There are very many pieces of evidence that the Irish establishment's economic activities mainly consist of salvageing enough for their personal security and pulling up the drawbridge behind them.

It's quite clear also that the Union leadership and mainstream parties are on the same side of the drawbridge as Fianna Fail.

What to do ?

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...w-2307233.html

[LeDroit]

Three choices:
1. Emigrate.
2. Black Economy/Tax Evasion to look after your own.
3. Start a political movement to put pressure on the vested interests who don't want change, the PS, the quangos and the unions. Simultaneously incentivise endeavour and job creation by cutting taxes and restrictions on employment, such as wage agreements. Let the Market clear the mess instead of trying to 'manage' it which will drag out recovery and ultimately cause more misery.

What choice do you want to make?

[C. Flower]

Three choices:
1. Emigrate.
2. Black Economy/Tax Evasion to look after your own.
3. Start a political movement to put pressure on the vested interests who don't want change, the PS, the quangos and the unions. Simultaneously incentivise endeavour and job creation by cutting taxes and restrictions on employment, such as wage agreements. Let the Market clear the mess instead of trying to 'manage' it which will drag out recovery and ultimately cause more misery.

What choice do you want to make?

1.Not going to emigrate - have done that before. Similar problems exist elsewhere.

2. Living from hand to mouth is a problem, not a solution.

3. The idea of an uncorrupt free market in Ireland is a non-runner. The State is far too small for competition to solve our energy and telecoms problems. I'm in favour of public initiatives in these areas, of public control and sustainable development of our natural resources and indigenous industry and of creating conditions to support FDI - improved training, cheaper energy etc. Tourism needs the kitchen sink thrown at it and agriculture too, if it is to survive as a sector that employs people. The economies that have done best have all had a strong public sector involvement.

If it was down to me, this government would be gone. I've taken part in a number of demonstrations and up to this stage the support has not been there to insist on a General Election. It's chicken and egg. If there's no pressure and involvement from the public, alternative parties and existing opposition parties will not shape up and do the necessary.

It really has gone beyond being relevant to blame the Government at this stage. We know what they are - if we allow them to continue, we deserve what we get.

[ThomasB]

Three choices:
1. Emigrate.
2. Black Economy/Tax Evasion to look after your own.
3. Start a political movement to put pressure on the vested interests who don't want change, the PS, the quangos and the unions. Simultaneously incentivise endeavour and job creation by cutting taxes and restrictions on employment, such as wage agreements. Let the Market clear the mess instead of trying to 'manage' it which will drag out recovery and ultimately cause more misery.

What choice do you want to make?

Oh please !!!!! not another group/party/facebook page. Just pick one of the NEW ones already started & help them - anything else is just dilutes what little real interest and active people there are.

The reason FF are still in power is because there is complete solidarity !!!

[C. Flower]

Oh please !!!!! not another group/party/facebook page. Just pick one of the NEW ones already started & help them - anything else is just dilutes what little real interest and active people there are.

The reason FF are still in power is because there is complete solidarity !!!

Any group that is putting itself forward and hasn't a real programme for dealing with the banks should fold up tent and go home.

We need an orderly write down and we need masses of people on the streets to show we mean business.

[concernedparent]

Three choices:
1. Emigrate.
2. Black Economy/Tax Evasion to look after your own.
3. Start a political movement to put pressure on the vested interests who don't want change, the PS, the quangos and the unions. Simultaneously incentivise endeavour and job creation by cutting taxes and restrictions on employment, such as wage agreements. Let the Market clear the mess instead of trying to 'manage' it which will drag out recovery and ultimately cause more misery.

What choice do you want to make?

The majority of people employed in the public sector are in the market for change and by the same criteria they are trade unionists, who are being inadequately represented by the trade union movement.

Dont forget these are the people who have shouldered pay cuts and are ready to embrace change in order to try and put the country back on its feet again in order to try and ensure that there is some sort of future for their children. Just because one person in a family may be a public sector worker, it has not sheltered them from what's going on in the country. Their spouses/partners may be unemployed and their children departed on a flight from Dublin, in order to find some sort of a future, whether temporary or permanent.

It is the attitude that anyone in the public sector is immune from the effects of the recession, that poisons our thinking and our clarity as we search for solutions to the many problems besetting our country. It is the attitude that successfully divides public/private employee and enables the present government to continue on their current path of mass destruction.

Only by acknowledging that very few have been left untouched(politicians and senior bankers perhaps the exception) by the current mess we find ourselves in will we be able to move forward in our thinking and endeavour to find solutions that will enable this country to get back on its feet again.

[C. Flower]

The majority of people employed in the public sector are in the market for change and by the same criteria they are trade unionists, who are being inadequately represented by the trade union movement.

Dont forget these are the people who have shouldered pay cuts and are ready to embrace change in order to try and put the country back on its feet again in order to try and ensure that there is some sort of future for their children. Just because one person in a family may be a public sector worker, it has not sheltered them from what's going on in the country. Their spouses/partners may be unemployed and their children departed on a flight from Dublin, in order to find some sort of a future, whether temporary or permanent.

It is the attitude that anyone in the public sector is immune from the effects of the recession, that poisons our thinking and our clarity as we search for solutions to the many problems besetting our country. It is the attitude that successfully divides public/private employee and enables the present government to continue on their current path of mass destruction.

Only by acknowledging that very few have been left untouched(politicians and senior bankers perhaps the exception) by the current mess we find ourselves in will we be able to move forward in our thinking and endeavour to find solutions that will enable this country to get back on its feet again.

We have less than three quarters of the income we need to keep up current expenditure. Next year we may not be able to borrow the money to push this problem into the future. Costs of borrowing to fund our deficit are already taking money that could be spent on services.

There isn't any government that can make that problem go away without some pain. The question is, do we do it collectively in a way that gives us a future, or do we burn out our entire economy, as it now happening, so that a small number of people can save themselves ?

[concernedparent]

And should the government decide to default on its borrowing, what happens then.?


I have read somewhere that its not beyond the bounds of possiblity that the USA have that option in the pipeline.

They have printed so much money that they have effectively backed themselves into a corner.

[Cassandra Syndrome]

We have to leave the Euro and the EU. We need smaller government and more direct democracy. We need a new banking system. We even need to re evaluate and change some of our social norms.

Massive seismic changes required that requires huge teamwork to itemise "how do we get there?"

Thats the reality. This ship is going down in its current format and the insane policies of this government particularly over trying to save Anglo and the other banks and also membership of the Euro and EU are dragging us down.

[Xray]

Three choices:
1. Emigrate.
2. Black Economy/Tax Evasion to look after your own.
3. Start a political movement to put pressure on the vested interests who don't want change, the PS, the quangos and the unions. Simultaneously incentivise endeavour and job creation by cutting taxes and restrictions on employment, such as wage agreements. Let the Market clear the mess instead of trying to 'manage' it which will drag out recovery and ultimately cause more misery.

What choice do you want to make?

Don't want change? What hole are you living in?

I work in the PS and I can tell you I am far from immune from the sh1t storm that had hit this country. I want change, plenty of it. I want to change the way I work, I want to save money, I want to do a better job and so do most people I work with.

What change do you have in mind for health service workers aside from what has happened to date?

Perhaps I could start working in a field and hold an umbrella over the trolley to save money?

That is about the level of the "reform", slashing spending across the board and not filling any post as it empties is not reform or positive change it is collapse.

There is a political movement doing what you want, its called the government.

[Xray]

We don't need to leave the euro or EU, we need to default. We are broke. Face the music and recover. That's all, admit we screwed up and start again. Like Iceland. It wont even be a real default just private bank default, pay our state debts only.

[ThomasB]

Three choices:
1. Emigrate.
2. Black Economy/Tax Evasion to look after your own.
3. Start a political movement to put pressure on the vested interests who don't want change, the PS, the quangos and the unions. Simultaneously incentivise endeavour and job creation by cutting taxes and restrictions on employment, such as wage agreements. Let the Market clear the mess instead of trying to 'manage' it which will drag out recovery and ultimately cause more misery.

What choice do you want to make?

We have to leave the Euro and the EU. We need smaller government and more direct democracy. We need a new banking system. We even need to re evaluate and change some of our social norms.

Massive seismic changes required that requires huge teamwork to itemise "how do we get there?"

Thats the reality. This ship is going down in its current format and the insane policies of this government particularly over trying to save Anglo and the other banks and also membership of the Euro and EU are dragging us down.

+1

Teamwork is top of any recovery !!! and only then will the government fear the people

[greengoose]

We don't need to leave the euro or EU, we need to default. We are broke. Face the music and recover. That's all, admit we screwed up and start again. Like Iceland. It wont even be a real default just private bank default, pay our state debts only.

Shock!!! Horror!!! Sacriliege.

Saint Lendahand would argue with you on that!!!

[Xray]

Shock!!! Horror!!! Sacriliege.

Saint Lendahand would argue with you on that!!!

Well if he is right and his policy works he will be loved, if he is wrong we are into serious double dip stuff this winter, maybe really bad stuff. Either way we will either hit the floor or start to recover soon, we don't have the cash to keep going the way we are. I think between now and Xmas we will see a lot happen. Its the end game now for the banks, if they survive to Jan 1 they have a future. There are rumbling in FF against the Anglo policy, time is running out for him.

[greengoose]

Well if he is right and his policy works he will be loved, if he is wrong we are into serious double dip stuff this winter, maybe really bad stuff. Either way we will either hit the floor or start to recover soon, we don't have the cash to keep going the way we are. I think between now and Xmas we will see a lot happen. Its the end game now for the banks, if they survive to Jan 1 they have a future. There are rumbling in FF against the Anglo policy, time is running out for him.

Ah yes, the "if factor" again. Now on a personal note, do you believe in if?