Just how "republican " were the "men of '16 " ?

[Andrew49]

bang on and i also agree with o'cathasaigh ... The worst thing we ever did was to hold back with the guillotine on the gombeen men. They haven't gone away you know.

The truth is that the vast majority of people in ireland are so used to cap-doffing the anglos when they were legally visible in the state, and the blasted gombeen irish lickspittles of the rump of the roman empire referred to as 'priests' that they see anything with an official title as a protestant on a horse.

A thousand years of oppression either through spiritual ju-ju or civil oppression tends to give a prison population the habit of becoming institutionalised in deference.

I'd remind everyone that the imf wrote in their june report on the economy in ireland that the government had instituted cuts 'with remarkable ease'.

That may have been a compliment to the gombeens but it was not a compliment to the rest of us.

+100

[Sidewinder]

As usual, I did try to warn ye all about how this sort of carry-on would only get a lot worse after the Guarantee, the then-inevitable IMF arrival and now last week's formal surrender-monkey dismantling of any pretence of Ireland as a sovereign state.

What has always astounded me about Ireland is how bloody obvious all this nonsense is, how wilfully delusional most of the populace are, and just how many cretins there really are - actively, with malice aforethought - scheming and conniving to sell their countrymen down the river.

Take the pikes down from the thatch or embrace your servility, I don't really care which any more, just stop spoofing, dissembling and pretending.

[Andrew49]

It's the deference thing that irks me no end. The limited amount of schooling I received, in the mid-60s, included the 1916 Rising, and from what I could gather it was a culmination of a centuries-long battle against evil oppressors. Oppressors, mind you, who failed to wipe out our Catholic, Christian and Gaelic Culture, and that we triumphed in the end for the most part except that portion up North where the oppressors was still beating down on our Catholic, Christian and Gaelic Culture. Lots of talk from the clergy teacher about how the men (no mention of women) at the GPO were fighting to secure Ireland's Independence from the oppressors' yoke and in order to cherish all of the children of the nation equally.

Being not of a deferential mind myself, and despite my tender years, I did ask of the clergy teacher why some many of us children were locked up, despite such a stirring victory by the Men of 1916! Needless to say I got a severe beating on the spot; but the worse ignominy to befall me following my 'ignorant' question was that I was banned from taking part in the 50th Commemoration of the Easter Rising - and I had the starring role as I was to be Padraig Pearse. Dignitaries from the local town were to see our play and tea biscuits were going to be the order of the day.

Instead I was consigned to the farm outhouses where I was to sort spuds with the other reprobates who'd asked uncomfortable questions!

[fluffybiscuits]

Andrew or anyone else that is interested, got a few of these today.

http://www.grabone.ie/dublin/1916-re...m_medium=email

Rebellion walking tour

[C. Flower]

Ireland never had a 'bourgeois' revolution in the way the French had, the English (1641), the Americans or most of the other advanced capitalist states. In those states following revolution, you had a number of things carried out such as the resolution of the national question, separation of church and State (de facto, if not de jure) which our 'bourgeoisie', such as they were, were too weak and tied to common interests with the english capitalist class through trade to carry out a revolution which would achieve these goals: the closest we had to that was 1798, when a genuine attempt was made to breach sectarian and national divisions on the ground and imitate the french model, but after the failure of that uprising, 'republicanism' in this country took on a distinctly and increasingly sectarian tone, and because of the lack of a bourgeois revolution post-occupation Ireland retains significant elements of a feudalist society such as control of key institutions by the church and underdeveloped industrial base.

This is a very good point. But to some extent the establishment of the State, along with the crushing of the Irish Soviets and the acceptance by Labour that it should "wait" was a transfer of power by Britain to the Irish bourgeoisie and petit bourgeoisie (there being not much in the way of nationalist big bourgeois).

Ireland was colonialised, rather than feudal, in the 19th century - not the same thing. There were absentee landlords, and the dross of public servants sent here. The British were willing to grant substantial land reform without a revolution, to buy off a portion of the population in exchange for a small farm. It didn't work out of course.

[Lapsedmethodist]

And since you've had the good taste to revive what was an excellent thread might I add that the recent publication of the Archives does little to dispel the horrible and treacherous thought that the whole 1916 thing was an elaborate land grab and score setling exercise. Tribal, in other words. Of course, what else could be expected from an insurrection that was defined by the Proclamation ; a simple military call -to-arms with a single goal.

[Sam Lord]

And since you've had the good taste to revive what was an excellent thread might I add that the recent publication of the Archives does little to dispel the horrible and treacherous thought that the whole 1916 thing was an elaborate land grab and score setling exercise. Tribal, in other words. Of course, what else could be expected from an insurrection that was defined by the Proclamation ; a simple military call -to-arms with a single goal.

It was an uprising against British rule in Ireland.

Plain and simple.

A large part of the "men of 1916" was comprised of the Irish Citizen Army. I doubt they were interested in "land grabbing".

You have an unfortunate habit of trying to twist Irish history to fit your warped ideological outlook.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

It is the 'settlement' mentality. LM views everything through the prism of possession of land. An obsession with others of his mentality in the middle east who have spent most of their history trying to thieve land.

[Richardbouvet]

In hindsight, should socialists have bothered to get involved in 1916? Perhaps Connolly was wrong, and the Irish worker would have done better as part of the UK labour movement.

When I see how Britain developed a welfare state and a national health service while we developed into a priest-ridden gombeen backwater, I sometimes wonder.

[C. Flower]

And since you've had the good taste to revive what was an excellent thread might I add that the recent publication of the Archives does little to dispel the horrible and treacherous thought that the whole 1916 thing was an elaborate land grab and score setling exercise. Tribal, in other words. Of course, what else could be expected from an insurrection that was defined by the Proclamation ; a simple military call -to-arms with a single goal.

Which archives? You didnt give a link, so I'm assuming that you were using this site - "Documents of Irish Foreign Policy" - a very useful resource.

http://www.difp.ie/

1916 was patently no single thing. The Proclamation was a statement from a temporary coalition who agreed on one thing and disagreed on many. To some extent, it was an indirect response to the horror of World War and imperialism generally.

Ironic indeed that the response was military, but life is a contradictory thing.

[C. Flower]

Devalera sent Walshe to Rome to get approval for the religious aspects of the 1937 Constitution from the Pope.

The Pope said it didn't go far enough in recognising the RC Church, but was a big improvement on the previous Free State Constitution.

http://www.difp.ie/publication-revie...es_25Nov06.pdf

[Lapsedmethodist]

It was an uprising against British rule in Ireland.

Plain and simple.

A large part of the "men of 1916" was comprised of the Irish Citizen Army. I doubt they were interested in "land grabbing".

You have an unfortunate habit of trying to twist Irish history to fit your warped ideological outlook.

Brilliant Sam. I'd never have guessed. However, why was the decision taken to abandon Home Rule in favour of a military uprising with little chance of success and no clearly defined idea what to do if it had achieved success. " Ah sure, we'll think of something " !

The military archives are open, and there's a thread on here about them. Even in retrospect those giving testimonies admitted to serious deviation from the war aims while papering over the cracks by insisting that the IRA took steps to punish those involved.

[Ogiol]

Brilliant Sam. I'd never have guessed. However, why was the decision taken to abandon Home Rule in favour of a military uprising with little chance of success and no clearly defined idea what to do if it had achieved success. " Ah sure, we'll think of something " !

The military archives are open, and there's a thread on here about them. Even in retrospect those giving testimonies admitted to serious deviation from the war aims while papering over the cracks by insisting that the IRA took steps to punish those involved.

Are you calling the 1916 Proclamation ''ah sure, we'll thing of something''-----

right so

[Lapsedmethodist]

Are you calling the 1916 Proclamation ''ah sure, we'll thing of something''-----

right so

Exactly. No vision, no manifesto, just Brits out and we'll cobble a country together afterwards.

[Apjp]

Well, there was a civil war. And the left/republicans lost. You would be surprised at how many progressive people on the losing side were driven out of the country following it.

My Great Uncles included, both of whom left for Australia afterwards. One fought in the Bolands mills in 1916, was in Frongoch and fought in the two wars and and another was an IRA quartermaster during the 'Tan war'. 2 of them were interned in Gormanston Prison but escaped close to the end of the civil war, in more ways than one. Never came back of course and one of them never wrote home.