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Thread: 70th Anniversary of the assassination of Leon Trotsky

  1. #16
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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    Accidentally edited by Mod. Apologies. no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Were there really 10,000 Bolsheviks killed by the Mutineers? I think I read that somewhere once but it seems an extraordinary number....
    that's a fairly accurate account of the Bolshevik losses in the first assault, add to that another 1,000 in the second assault, however, those were killed in battle and died as combatants. The 2,168 sailors were executed in the aftermath.

    I once did a paper about the Russian revolution and certainly remember the "shoot them down like partridges" order from back then, and in the late 1970ies we certainly hadn't access to google.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 18-08-2010 at 08:19 PM.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    I once did a paper about the Russian revolution and certainly remember the "shoot them down like partridges" order from back then, and in the late 1970ies we certainly hadn't access to google....
    Well, you have it now. My link shows that it was said according to the published literature by a US anarchist to Trotsky in 1917. You are dredging from unreferenced blogs, or worse, from the 1970s compartment in the back of your mind
    Last edited by C. Flower; 18-08-2010 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    that's a fairly accurate account of the Bolshevik losses in the first assault, add to that another 1,000 in the second assault, however, those soldiers were killed in battle and died as combatants. The 2,168 sailors were executed in the aftermath.
    It's just that those who support the mutineers are always critical of the Bolsheviks for being prepared to kill fellow workers yet it appears that those they support had no qualms about killing fellow workers either.

    Is it correct that the mutiny was actually crushed by workers within Krondstadt and not by successful assault?

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    a social revolution? i think you're romanticising about the Bolsheviki, whose idea "all power to the proletariat" it was in the first place, so their demands were rather in accordance with the original aims of the October revolution.
    The actual slogan you are thinking of was "all power to the Soviets".

    I thought that the mutiny was led by right socialist revolutionaries and this faction never supported the October revolution. The socialist revolutionaries were an odd lot ... many ended up fighting with the whites. It was a socialist revolutionary was shot Lenin.

    Sure the mutineers had a radical left sounding program but this served a purpose and I think if you dig deeply enough you will find that someone else was pulling the strings.

    In any case the Bolsheviks could not risk the Naval Fortress of Krondstadt falling into the hands of foreign powers .... many of whom as you are aware had a keen interest in overturning the revolution.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Well, you have it now. My link shows that it was said according to the published literature by a US anarchist to Trotsky in 1917. You are dredging from unreferenced blogs, or worse, from the 1970s compartment in the back of your mind
    Where is your link?
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    well, i certainly was not present when this order was given, IIRC the source was material related to Stalin's show trials but it really has been a a long tome ago and since then i have been diagnosed with C.R.S.

    Like many of his pals, Leon Trotsky fits the profile of a sociopath and I certainly wouldn't put the alleged atrocities past this guy.

    Anyway, i already hate this thread as i have come across a name (in the process of looking up sources) which has revived and old 'obsession' of mine which i thought to have long since overcome. thank you ever so much, antiestablishmentarian.
    Last edited by TotalMayhem; 18-08-2010 at 08:39 PM.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    The only reference I can find (apart from unsourced blogging) for your quote has an anarchist in NY using that phrase to Trotsky.
    http://books.google.ie/books?id=g4Yn...ridges&f=false
    It was in post no. 5 of this thread and it isn't exactly a friendly source.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    No, that certainly wasn't it, and it wasn't in English either.

    Now, i'm not 100% sure but i think, it might have been this book:

    Arbeiterdemokratie oder Parteidiktatur - Dokumente der Weltrevolution

    Workers Democracy or Party Dictatorship - Documents of the World Revolution

    I have read this book over 3 decades ago in a Swiss school library. i don't know whether there is an English translation or if these documents are available online, but i will see what i can find.

    jeez, i HATE this thread.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    No, that certainly wasn't it, and it wasn't in English either.

    Now, i'm not 100% sure but i think, it might have been this book:

    Arbeiterdemokratie oder Parteidiktatur - Dokumente der Weltrevolution

    Workers Democracy or Party Dictatorship - Documents of the World Revolution

    I have read this book over 3 decades ago in a Swiss school library. i don't know whether there is an English translation or if these documents are available online, but i will see what i can find.

    jeez, i HATE this thread.


    LOL. You are taking the **** now ...
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  9. #24
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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    No, that certainly wasn't it, and it wasn't in English either.

    Now, i'm not 100% sure but i think, it might have been this book:

    Arbeiterdemokratie oder Parteidiktatur - Dokumente der Weltrevolution

    Workers Democracy or Party Dictatorship - Documents of the World Revolution

    I have read this book over 3 decades ago in a Swiss school library. i don't know whether there is an English translation or if these documents are available online, but i will see what i can find.

    jeez, i HATE this thread.
    German will do just fine.

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    It's just that those who support the mutineers are always critical of the Bolsheviks for being prepared to kill fellow workers yet it appears that those they support had no qualms about killing fellow workers either.
    I don't support any mutineers and I'm not talking about killings on a battlefield. I'm talking about the ensuing massacre as a measure of reprisal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Is it correct that the mutiny was actually crushed by workers within Krondstadt and not by successful assault?

    No, that is not correct. The Bolshevik government began its attack on Kronstadt on March 7. Some 60,000 troops under command of Mikhail Tukhachevsky (a Red Army commander) took part in the attack. They took full control of the city on March 19.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    In any case the Bolsheviks could not risk the Naval Fortress of Krondstadt falling into the hands of foreign powers .... many of whom as you are aware had a keen interest in overturning the revolution.
    Now that is very far fetched. There weren't many ambitious foreign powers left only three years after a devastating World War. Even if this were true, preventing Kronstadt from falling into the hands of such a foreign power is hardly reason enough to justify the atrocities.

    Mind you, we're not debating the right or wrongs of the rebellion and whether the Bolsheviks should or should not have suppressed the rebellion, we're talking about the slaughter in the aftermath of the suppression and Leon Trotsky's responsibility.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    right, we're getting somewhere here.

    Kronstadt 1921 — Rebellion, Dritte Revolution oder Konterrevolution ?

    (Rebellion, Third Revolution or Counterrevolution?)

    Noch am selben Tag ließ das Petrograder Verteidigungskomitee vom Flugzeug Flugblätter über Kronstadt abwerfen, in dem der Drohung Nachdruck verliehen wurde: "Wenn ihr nicht nachgebt, wird man euch der Reihe nach wie Rebhühner abschießen."
    It's about flyers with an ultimatum, dropped from an airplane over Kronstadt: "If you do not give in, you will be shot like partridges".

    How I understand it, this is attributed to either Trotzki, Kamenew, Tuchatschewski or Lebedew, indeed citing the aforementioned book.

    Now, if there really were such flyers, chances are that some of them may have indeed survived. If someone's speaking Russian here, he or she may want to to look further into the 'partridge' issue, be my guest, I'm sure Russian language skills would be very helpful. I learned Russian in school all right, for about 6 months (my mother thought it was a good idea at the time, in case the Russians are coming - it was the height of the cold war), and I remember about 3 words, I'm afraid 'partridge' ain't one of them.

    I did spot something very interesting though on this website:

    In der Nacht auf den 5. März traf Trotzki in Petrograd ein.

    * Als erste Maßnahme forderte er die Garnison und Bevölkerung Kronstadts ultimativ auf, sich bedingungslos zu ergeben;
    * gleichzeitig ordnete Trotzki an, alle Vorbereitungen für eine bewaffnete Aktion zu treffen
    In the night of March 5, Trotsky arrived in Petrograd.

    Hist first action was the issuance of an ultimatum to the garrison and the citizens of Kronstadt, demanding their unconditional surrender.

    At the same time he ordered to begin immediately with preparations for an armed suppression.


    Now this clearly contradicts Trotsky's own account of the events, it places him at the scene where he personally took command.

    Here is what Trotsky said:

    The rebellion broke out during my stay in the Urals. From the Urals I came directly to Moscow for the 10th Congress of the party. The decision to suppress the rebellion by military force, if the fortress could not be induced to surrender, first by peace negotiations, then through an ultimatum – this general decision was adopted with my direct participation. But after the decision was taken, I continued to remain in Moscow and took no part, direct or indirect, in the military operations.
    Now something doesn't add up here. And from what i know, there were no peace negotiations either, the attacks on Kronstadt began on March 7, a day or two after Trotzki's arrival.
    Last edited by TotalMayhem; 18-08-2010 at 11:54 PM.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    That's for the birds, Total. Try this - there were new papers released in 1999.
    http://www.workersvanguard.org/engli...kronstadt.html

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    The leader of the mutineers .... one seriously dodgy character.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_...ch_Petrichenko

    I note that that despite all the rhetoric about winning or dying for the workers cause he was not one of those who fought to the bitter end in Krondstadt but somehow managed to make his way to Finland.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    The Independent Soviet Republic of Soldiers and Fortress-Builders of Nargen ....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nargen

    I can imagine that the ordinary people of Nargen were just waiting for Petrichenko and his merry band of sailors to descend and make fortress builders out of them.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: 70th Anniversary of the assasination of Leon Trotsky

    So, according to Wikipedia, Petrichenko was a dodgy character and therefore the Bolsheviks under Trotsky's command had to slaughter 2,168 sailors after they have surrendered? Maybe to prevent them from fleeing to Finland and help their leader setting up Naissaar II? Although i'm sure the Finns have been very appreciative, that is a bit harsh now, isn't it?

    BTW, it was a rebellion or counterrevolution, not a mutiny.

    And of course the Bolsheviks had no choice but to suppress this rebellion, but that is not the issue. The issue is the barbaric massacre in the aftermath of the suppression.

    Anyway, we may talk all day and night here and getting nowhere, I'll leave you to this thread, you may now celebrate the man, or his assassination ... everyone to their own.

    Oh, and you know the difference between Stalin and Trotsky? Stalin you could take for his word: "No Man, No Problem!"

    As I said earlier, I came across another name in the course of research during this debate, a far more interesting character. A Jew (like Trotsky, even the name bears a certain resemblance) from Poland who also was a devoted supporter of Stalin (just a generation later) ... for a while. Unlike Trotsky, he lived to tell the tale, the truly amazing tale of saving Stalin's @rse. I just saw 2 new books dealing the man and his organisation, which i have to track down now.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

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