Irish Republicanism and the Peace Process

[C. Flower]

here you go

+ 1

[Cáthasaigh]

Should this have read ' Some Irish Republicans don't support the GFA' or maybe 'A minority of Republicans don't support the GFA'

Maybe your hole! Irish Republicans don't support the GFA, end of.

Okay so we have an educated and motivated people.... What now? Hypothetical question.

Get enough people motivated and mobilised and this place could be made ungovernable without a shot being fired; turn the clock back to 1969.

[Cáthasaigh]

And just exactly what is it you think I'm not comprehending? I gave a simple and accurate legal assessment of a legal document, made because it is obviously being misread. That assessment was for information purposes and was made completely devoid of any statement or hint of my political position whatsoever. You lack a factual basis to make a judgment on my character or political affiliations. You don't have a clue who I am, where I've been, or what I've seen.

My "viewpoint concerning British good faith, respect for law or decency and fair play etc." was unstated, and possibly came from some sort of mental delusion of yours. I would seek professional help, seriously.

"Article 6c of the Charter of the Nuremberg Trial defines
crimes against humanity as “murder, extermination, enslavement,
deportation and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian
population before or during the war.” This was codified in the UK after world war I in response to the genocide of the Armenians and Greeks by the Turks starting in the late 1800's, and culminating in 1909 in an all out effort to completely exterminate the Armenians, and then the German brutality during world war I. The trials initiated in Istanbul (1919-1921) and Leipzig (1921-1922) were total fiascos and the principals hid behind diplomatic immunity defenses like "act of state", "orders from a superior" and "sovereign immunity". After world war II most of the defenses were neutralized.

The body of legal thought that came out of all that was that a culture of impunity for the perpetrators of oppression, and the inaction of it's victims, was the precursor of a culture of genocide. The remedy is seen as institutionalized retributive justice. That justice, in turn acts as an absolute deterrent, and there is a change in culture to one of acceptance.

In context, like I said, your problem isn't with the GFA, your problem is with the uneven administration of justice through the courts. Why weren't the perpetrator's of the massacre of innocent irish on bloody Sunday prosecuted for it, etc.? Think about what a culture shift would have occurred during these years after if they had been. Oppression and violent resistance are not a product of a piece of paper, faulty or not. It's a product of a failure to hold oppressors responsible for their actions.

Was there a point to that self-contradictory rant?

You talk of the Charter of Nuremburg codified in the UK yet fail to mention British campaigns of genocide in northern Iraq which would have been occurring during and after codification, not so far from where the Armenians were massacred and against other enemies of the Turks; the Kurds. You then go on to tell us that its our fault for not holding the British to account which is akin to blaming a rape victim for the rape. Where are we supposed to hold the Brits to account; the UN where they have a permanent seat on the security council?

In the course of your innane rant you fail to address a single one of my criticisms of the GFA or indeed any of the valid and reasoned arguments put forward by Liam Ó Ruairc. Your contribution to this thread has essentially been a waste of bandwidth.

[Chuck Mc]

Was there a point to that self-contradictory rant?

You talk of the Charter of Nuremburg codified in the UK yet fail to mention British campaigns of genocide in northern Iraq which would have been occurring during and after codification, not so far from where the Armenians were massacred and against other enemies of the Turks; the Kurds. You then go on to tell us that its our fault for not holding the British to account which is akin to blaming a rape victim for the rape. Where are we supposed to hold the Brits to account; the UN where they have a permanent seat on the security council?

In the course of your innane rant you fail to address a single one of my criticisms of the GFA or indeed any of the valid and reasoned arguments put forward by Liam Ó Ruairc. Your contribution to this thread has essentially been a waste of bandwidth.

So you agree with me then.

[Chuck Mc]

If the courts can't or refuse to enforce the law, and aggressors can be heavy handed with impunity, it's time to respond with retribution at the scene of the "crime", with a clear message outlining the reason. That appears to be the modus operandi at the moment. With the Prime Minister of Britain publicly apologizing and taking responsibility for Bloody Sunday in Derry, it's obvious that the effort has been working albeit slowly. I see a paradigm shift in progress. One would think that at some point they would come to realize it's not worth it and leave!

The diplock courts, secret witnesses, beating deaths in jails, etc., are the problem as I see it, and that has continued in spite of the GFA, before and after. Why then make up stories about the GFA, Sinn Fein, Fine Gael, FF, RIRA, PIRA, etc., and have 10 splinter groups (sorry, Liam Ó Ruairc!) fighting each other, while the Brits stand back and laugh?

[Cáthasaigh]

If the courts can't or refuse to enforce the law, and aggressors can be heavy handed with impunity, it's time to respond with retribution at the scene of the "crime", with a clear message outlining the reason. That appears to be the modus operandi at the moment. With the Prime Minister of Britain publicly apologizing and taking responsibility for Bloody Sunday in Derry, it's obvious that the effort has been working albeit slowly. I see a paradigm shift in progress. One would think that at some point they would come to realize it's not worth it and leave!

The diplock courts, secret witnesses, beating deaths in jails, etc., are the problem as I see it, and that has continued in spite of the GFA, before and after. Why then make up stories about the GFA, Sinn Fein, Fine Gael, FF, RIRA, PIRA, etc., and have 10 splinter groups (sorry, Liam Ó Ruairc!) fighting each other, while the Brits stand back and laugh?

The only paradigm shift that has occurred in recent times is on the Irish side. The 26C gave up its constitutional claim to the 6, at Britain's behest, and the former leaders of Irish Republicanism participated in the manufacture of the 'Britain is not our enemy but our friend' illusion.

I can't see where the optimism regarding Britain leaving eminates from as there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this is ever likely to happen. Only a concerted effort by the people of Ireland will ever remove British rule from Ireland and you are right in regard to liabilities of schismatic fragmentation; Britain fosters such dissent and division and always has done for that very purpose.

The first step on the path to removing British rule is the recognition that Britain is the same enemy as of old and the entire media focus of recent years has been to prevent such realisations; rather to foster a contrary form of Stokholm Syndrome. The Irish people must unite behind a common goal if they are ever to unite their country. 'Brits out' is as good a place as any to start.

[Chuck Mc]

The only paradigm shift that has occurred in recent times is on the Irish side. The 26C gave up its constitutional claim to the 6, at Britain's behest, and the former leaders of Irish Republicanism participated in the manufacture of the 'Britain is not our enemy but our friend' illusion.

I can't see where the optimism regarding Britain leaving eminates from as there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this is ever likely to happen. Only a concerted effort by the people of Ireland will ever remove British rule from Ireland and you are right in regard to liabilities of schismatic fragmentation; Britain fosters such dissent and division and always has done for that very purpose.

The first step on the path to removing British rule is the recognition that Britain is the same enemy as of old and the entire media focus of recent years has been to prevent such realisations; rather to foster a contrary form of Stokholm Syndrome. The Irish people must unite behind a common goal if they are ever to unite their country. 'Brits out' is as good a place as any to start.

So you're saying that Cameron's admission is more of the usual dishonest smoke they blow, meant to foster a paradigm shift in the Irish movement? I hadn't thought of that. You might actually have a point there. I completely agree. The question is how to unite the Irish people?

[Cáthasaigh]

So you're saying that Cameron's admission is more of the usual dishonest smoke they blow, meant to foster a paradigm shift in the Irish movement? I hadn't thought of that. You might actually have a point there. I completely agree. The question is how to unite the Irish people?

Consider for a second that the main media, state and semi-state independent, news reports of the publication of Saville reported that Ltc Wilford was dead. This was proven to be a lie by a Mail On Sunday article the following Sunday. Of course none of our compliant politicians or journalists chose to question why the British government chose to issue yet another lie to protect Ltc Wilford. As far as uniting the Irish people is concerned we must first shatter the illusion of British benevolent or even benign nature in regard to Ireland. That in itself is a monumental task which faces full spectrum multimedia opposition and centuries of conditioning.

[Dr. FIVE]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19701558

The leader of Fianna Fail has described the calls from the Northern Ireland Assembly for an apology from the Irish government as "confrontational."

Micheal Martin said he was "extremely disappointed with the tone, the tenor and the nature of the debate."

A DUP motion had called on the Irish government to apologise for its alleged role in the emergence of the IRA.

The motion was passed by 47 votes to 46.

Mr Martin said he rejected any suggestion that Irish governments had, in the past, connived with or supported the IRA and found the suggestion "reprehensible".

[C. Flower]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19701558

Just watched "Scannal" on RTE. It was suggested that at the time of the Presidential election, early 80s, when it transpired that Brian Lenihan had given an apparently frank and lengthy interview to a student, Brian Duffy, there was a general panic (and a particularly Haughey-located panic) about what he might have said about the "arms scandal."

[5intheface]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19701558

This in the week that the PSNI's own HET announced that the British State probably colluded in the murders of 2 Derry men.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-norther...-west-19672483

Add this to the countless other killings which have been proven and in some cases even admitted and ask yourself why Nawvan Ahland County Council are suddenly so concerned about collusion.

The southern state is guilty, guilty of doing dam all at best and in the case of Dublin/Monaghan, actively colluding with the British and their representatives in Loyalism.

Peter, take your demand and stick it in the back of your sock drawer beside your red beret.

[C. Flower]

This in the week that the PSNI's own HET announced that the British State probably colluded in the murders of 2 Derry men.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-norther...-west-19672483

Add this to the countless other killings which have been proven and in some cases even admitted and ask yourself why Nawvan Ahland County Council are suddenly so concerned about collusion.

The southern state is guilty, guilty of doing dam all at best and in the case of Dublin/Monaghan, actively colluding with the British and their representatives in Loyalism.

Peter, take your demand and stick it in the back of your sock drawer beside your red beret.

You could say that the southern state saved them (selves) from the red peril. Well, perhaps that was the intention. And then got on with the colluding.