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Thread: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of 67 View Post
    Very informative site , some great info on there .
    It is useful to get a catalan perspective on this issue considering the majority spanish view comes from Madrid...
    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/01/20/...10_349121.html

    Three Catalan socialists who broke with the whip have been threatened with suspension. I take it the vote passed? Spanish govt has said that the vote must be nationwide if it effects the whole of Spain.
    Yes Fluff, almost 2 thirds supported the vote, with over 2 thirds in favour.... The socialists might be a big player in Spain but in Catalunya they are but a small, terminally declining party. Also, El País has veered so far to the right that it is unrecognisable to that of 5-10 years ago.

    Catalan President Mas did an interview with the BBC, here it is along with an interesting article.

    The ball is now firmly in Madrid's court, with the catalan parliament having officially requested powers to hold a plebiscite, much in the same way Scotland did with London. And in other news, Rajoy says he has a plan to stop catalan independence... I wonder does it come from the same book as the plan to fix Spain's economy....

  2. #77
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    It is useful to get a catalan perspective on this issue considering the majority spanish view comes from Madrid...


    Yes Fluff, almost 2 thirds supported the vote, with over 2 thirds in favour.... The socialists might be a big player in Spain but in Catalunya they are but a small, terminally declining party. Also, El País has veered so far to the right that it is unrecognisable to that of 5-10 years ago.

    Catalan President Mas did an interview with the BBC, here it is along with an interesting article.

    The ball is now firmly in Madrid's court, with the catalan parliament having officially requested powers to hold a plebiscite, much in the same way Scotland did with London. And in other news, Rajoy says he has a plan to stop catalan independence... I wonder does it come from the same book as the plan to fix Spain's economy....
    Would you rule out or in military intervention?

    Been reading that article about Rajoys plan, its not very clever

    Explaining the dangers of independence? Most of Catalonia would be economically independent .

    He's also threatening to use the constitution to suspend their autonomy, that will just make Catalonia more independent!
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

  3. #78
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Pools showing separatist possibility

    Catalan separatists are on track to win a small majority of seats in the Catalan Parliament next week, three polls in Spanish newspapers showed on Sunday, possibly paving the way for a declaration of independence.

    Catalan President Artur Mas has called the Sept. 27 election a proxy vote on the wealthy northeastern region's separation from the rest of Spain after Madrid blocked an attempt at a referendum on independence last year.

    The three separate polls for El Pais, La Vanguardia and ABC newspapers show the main pro-independence movement Junts pel Si winning between 63 and 67 seats, or around 41 percent of the vote, just shy of a absolute parliamentary majority.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0RK0GH20150920
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  4. #79
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Spanish police firing rubber bullets at voters allegedly.

    Madrid seems to be doing all in its power to discourage this vote. The British handling of Scottish calls for independence look a lot more civilised in comparison... Actually granting a referendum.

  5. #80
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Catalan lawmakers sign declaration of independence: Ap
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  6. #81
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Catalan parliament voted for independence. (In case nobody noticed.)

    Regards...jmcc

  7. #82
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Yea i noticed and am celebrating.... same case as Scotland except that in this case they didn't have to fight against the propaganda machine that is the British press.

    I hope Catalonia goes down in history as the second Carnation Revolution in Iberia in 50 years... Portugal was first, obviously, always.
    (i hope, bc they have gone this far without spilling ANY blood ..none, zero whatsoever.. if they succeed they will join Portugal on that feat).

  8. #83
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    Yea i noticed and am celebrating.... same case as Scotland except that in this case they didn't have to fight against the propaganda machine that is the British press.

    I hope Catalonia goes down in history as the second Carnation Revolution in Iberia in 50 years... Portugal was first, obviously, always.
    (i hope, bc they have gone this far without spilling ANY blood ..none, zero whatsoever.. if they succeed they will join Portugal on that feat).
    It would be great if it all passes off peacefully but I don't think that it will. Rajoy has made a mess of things and he has to save face by acting the hard man. It has also worried scumbag EUnuchs like Drunken Juncker et al because an independent Catalonia undermines their reason for existence. This is why they were making those pro-Madrid tweets. The Madrid government already tried to hit the .cat gTLD registry. The .CAT domain names are for the Catalan region and people much like the .PT is for Portugal. As Catalonia did not have its own country code, it could not get a two letter country code TLD like .IE, .PT, .US etc.) to knock out websites providing information on the referendum so it may be, along with other communication services, a target for Madrid. This is Catalonia's 'Ireland 1919' moment.

    Regards...jmcc

  9. #84
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Rajoy is an arrogant Fracoist



    Zapetero had laid the way for Spain to recognise Catalonia as a nation within Spain, leading to some form of federalism. Rajoy back tracked and put an end to it.

    I was listening to a son or grandson of Michael O'Riordan who fought on the Spanish Republic side in the civil war. Which interestingly played out a continuation of our own civil war. Apparently the Catalonians independence movement had a lot of admiration for Irelands declaration of independence in 1919. Mass demonstrations were held in support of Terence McSwiney. I hope they avoid bloodshed unlike here.

    In the battle of the Ebro the flags of the Spanish Republic and Catalonia were carried across the river and the international brigade thought it was fitting for an Irishman to carry the flag of Catalonia so it was given to O'Riordan.
    Last edited by Fraxinus; 28-10-2017 at 09:19 AM.

  10. #85
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Catalan 'crisis': Catalunya Sí que es Pot (aka En Comu Podem) voted no in the main to the independence declaration it is reckoned . Sensible, they are a (Unidos Podemos related) coalition representing people from a Spanish migrant worker tradition . Hardline 'unionists' abstained in the secret ballot . The Spanish broad left support the right to self determination only but there is confusion due to a 'pro-Independence' minority within the Catalan coalition . I congratulate them on their intelligent position, much more sensible than the fear driven one of the Susanna Dias (Andalusia 'baron') wing of PSOE which allow Rajoy remain in power because they fear the loss of Catalonia's tax revenue . A PSOE + Unidos Podemos coalition supported by Catalan and Basque nationlists is possible
    http://www.publico.es/politica/parla...-ausentes.html

    Opinion Polls for the Catalan election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_C...ional_election

    Meanwhile the Spanish extreme right threaten violence again against the Spanish Left and Valencia regionalists (some of them being of Catalan identity) . They have already acted against a Podemos conference in Zaragosa . Unidos Podemos also have being trying to arrange talks with the Catalan nationalists to find a way out of the 'crisis'
    http://www.publico.es/sociedad/ultra...-valencia.html

  11. #86
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    The politicians looked very sombre and the singing of their Catalan anthem in parliament had an odd tone to it, not very joyous to say the least.

    Efforts have all been very peaceful and very by the book... Whatever happens here there are lessons for other movements around the world.

    Personally I think the Catalan politicians will wilt and bottle it and the situation will be defused and dragged out by elections and perhaps further Spanish state violence.. And who is there to defend the Catalan civilians?
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

  12. #87
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Notwithstanding Catalonia's historical heritage, and the fact that the nationalists are backed by both left and right wing "elements" I find it more than curious, that as with the Basques, also one of Spain's wealthiest regions, one of the main Catalan arguments for independence is that Madrid returns only 67 cents of every Euro collected, the balance going to subsidize poorer regions. That left wingers here would support that, I find bemusing.

    What if Dublin............ To say nothing about Unionists reluctance to tie the knot.
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  13. #88
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    Notwithstanding Catalonia's historical heritage, and the fact that the nationalists are backed by both left and right wing "elements" I find it more than curious, that as with the Basques, also one of Spain's wealthiest regions, one of the main Catalan arguments for independence is that Madrid returns only 67 cents of every Euro collected, the balance going to subsidize poorer regions. That left wingers here would support that, I find bemusing.

    What if Dublin............ To say nothing about Unionists reluctance to tie the knot.
    George Galloway made a similar argument on his radio show last night (it is always amusing to listen to him eviscerate hapless fools who call in).

    From five minutes on:



    Small nations, which Catalonia clearly is, should be allowed self determination. They should be allowed to freely decide if they want to be part of a larger state, for example, like Scotland.

    The argument regarding finances is only one of the arguments, but I think you will find that probably the main reasons for the growth in support for independence stems from recent developments over the past five years or so regarding issues to do with the Catalan language and nationality, particularly from the Spanish Supreme Court. After all, it is nothing new that Catalonia is one of the wealthiest regions in Spain, what has changed in recent years is the actions of the Madrid government.

    Personally I support the right of the Catalan people to determine the course of their destinies...

    You are right though, this is not some kind of left uprising or led by left wing forces but that does not necessarily mean that socialists and those on the left should oppose Catalonia's expression of self determination.
    Last edited by Saoirse go Deo; 28-10-2017 at 04:40 PM.
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

  14. #89
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    I'm appalled, shocked, and morto, that I might hold an opinion in any way similar to Galloway.


    Even though the origins of the Nation State remain in dispute, there's a broad agreement that it was largely an 18th century European development from the time authorities begun to mandate mass education. Unified Spain predates that, so I'm at a loss to understand your characterization of Catalonia as a "nation".
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  15. #90
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcc View Post
    It would be great if it all passes off peacefully but I don't think that it will. Rajoy has made a mess of things and he has to save face by acting the hard man. It has also worried scumbag EUnuchs like Drunken Juncker et al because an independent Catalonia undermines their reason for existence. This is why they were making those pro-Madrid tweets. The Madrid government already tried to hit the .cat gTLD registry. The .CAT domain names are for the Catalan region and people much like the .PT is for Portugal. As Catalonia did not have its own country code, it could not get a two letter country code TLD like .IE, .PT, .US etc.) to knock out websites providing information on the referendum so it may be, along with other communication services, a target for Madrid. This is Catalonia's 'Ireland 1919' moment.

    Regards...jmcc
    Yes I hope so

    problem is drunken junker not understanding that these regions that feel they have been getting the short end of the stick like Scotland and Catalonia look up to the EU and see in the EU their hope for independence. ... unfortunately the EU does not have a mechanism in place to take these breakaways into their fold quickly ...

    what's the advantage of a 2 letter country code v 3 letter?

    Yes I think so! I wish them the very best .. I just read that Puigdemont does not accept destitution and is asking for democratic opposition to Madrid... this is VERY interesting to follow keeping in mind that if Rajoy goes in people like me are really to share the pictures of the grandma's that he will shoot in the head. A Revolution is a very different kettle of fish these days

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