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Thread: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    On the subject of bullfighting and Spanish province self determination I should clarify I am Portuguese (from Portugal).

    Since I came out as liking a good bullfight I should further add I like a good Portuguese*Tourada which is quite different from a Spanish traditional Corrida.

    These are the 3 major differences:

    A Tourada is a two-part show. Cavaleiro + Pega

    Unlike Spanish bullfighting (a single man on foot faces a bull which is killed onstage) in the Portuguese Tourada the entire 'lide' is done by a Cavaleiro on horseback, on a special horse breed called the Lusitano. The show then becomes Bull + Horse + Man. Its basically an equestrian show/dance around a bull. A bullfighter in Portugal is called a Cavaleiro and he never kills anything (other than his own reputation if he ever lets that bull too close to the horse).

    The bull is never killed in public and you will never see harvesting of any body parts (ears etc)

    There are no Picadores either in the Tourada given that the touro must face the horse+man. An over excited bull would end in disaster ... The star of the show at this point is the horse rather than the bull~man.

    In the second part if the show you get Bull v Man. This is the Pega-de-Caras. It is a team of 8 men lined up in a row and the deal is these guys must subdue the bull by hand, no knifes, no swords nothing but their bare hands and brains and team play. I have never seen anything as heart stopping (live). When the leader of the pack calls out the bull, the public stops breathing in a gasp, you can hear only the flies in the arena and your own heart thumping. The pack of men moves up to the bull and in a very fast orchestrated effort the 8 pin the bull down. So, if you are looking to see a true public display of a set of Balls in action (and I am not talking about the bull's) you go see a 'Pega-de-caras’.

    Now the social psychology lessons to be learned btw these two different types of ‘bullfighting’. If you ever have the chance to watch a Spanish Corrida live go see it but in the same trip watch a Portuguese Tourada and all of a sudden - without much lecturing - you will understand why there has been a border btw these two countries for > 800 years.

    As for self-determination of Cataluña and the Basque country they will be heavily supported in Portugal for geopolitical reasons. Lisbon would much rather deal with a more ‘humble’ Madrid than the bully it tends to be.....( -> look at the styles of bullfighting).

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Its still bloody cruel. To the horse and bull.
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Holly has, it seems, successfully derailed this thread on the virtues and/rights of Catalonia or the Basque Country to become independent states... Bull 'fighting' for the bull fighting thread I say...

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    ... Since I came out as liking a good bullfight I should further add I like a good Portuguese*Tourada which is quite different from a Spanish traditional Corrida.
    There are indeed differences between the Portuguese and Spanish styles. It is worth mentioning that the Spanish also use horses in rejón and the horsemanship is spectacular. You can see a demonstration in the Basque city of Bilbao from the first corrida of the season in August of this year below.


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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    http://voiceofrussia.com/uk/news/201...f-babies-4990/

    Barcelona seeing a 16% increase in the amount of babies being born . All down to sporting success!
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    There are indeed differences between the Portuguese and Spanish styles. It is worth mentioning that the Spanish also use horses in rejón and the horsemanship is spectacular. You can see a demonstration in the Basque city of Bilbao from the first corrida of the season in August of this year below.

    The "horsemanship" as you call it is nothing short of cruel - as for the perpetrators, horsewhipping would be too good for them.
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    http://voiceofrussia.com/uk/news/201...f-babies-4990/

    Barcelona seeing a 16% increase in the amount of babies being born . All down to sporting success!
    especially nine months after a bullfight!

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    The "horsemanship" as you call it is nothing short of cruel - as for the perpetrators, horsewhipping would be too good for them.
    keep your eyes on the white horse minute 3:00 -> brilliant -also brown horse ~min 7

    Min 9 - not so good as the bull touched the horse, in Portugal the Cavaleiro would have been boooed

    if you understand any spanish you'see all they talk about is the presentation of the horse.

    horsemanship is the caballero hands and feet

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    keep your eyes on the white horse minute 3:00 -> brilliant -also brown horse ~min 7

    Min 9 - not so good as the bull touched the horse, in Portugal the Cavaleiro would have been boooed

    if you understand any spanish you'see all they talk about is the presentation of the horse.

    horsemanship is the caballero hands and feet
    It's not my habit to watch videos of animal cruelty

    Big men aren't they, antagonizing terrified animals and putting others into danger all for idiots, who are no better, to ooh and aah. Utter dregs.
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    It's not my habit to watch videos of animal cruelty

    Big men aren't they, antagonizing terrified animals and putting others into danger all for idiots, who are no better, to ooh and aah. Utter dregs.
    Sure

    I would advise you to take all hurt bulls back home and nurse them to good health.

    Those boyz get laid, most of them are not big, big men dont make good cavaleiros (too heavy for the horse)... as a woman you should know that when you see a show like this.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    Sure

    I would advise you to take all hurt bulls back home and nurse them to good health.

    Those boyz get laid, most of them are not big, big men dont make good cavaleiros (too heavy for the horse)... as a woman you should know that when you see a show like this.
    Nice sexist undertone there. Very mature.

    Not that it matters but I'm not a woman, and I've ridden horses for years and have a great fondness for them. Don't even try to say that the "skills" of those barbarians terrifying horses and forcing them into dangerous situations are something to be admired. I don't think you'll find a single civilized person in the Irish equestrian community who'd agree with you. Harming animals for pleasure, whether its **** fighting, dog fighting or things like this is despicable and those who enjoy it are warped individuals. Someone who enjoys watching animals being hurt, terrified and tormented for nothing more than their own selfish pleasure are utter dregs and should take a long hard look at themselves.

    The nations being discussed in this thread have far greater and more worthy representations of their culture than this bottom feeding nonsense.
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Great thread, I’ve learned a lot reading thru it. It’s been going for a while but only seeing it now.

    Firstly, Cass, I just gotta address your words “potential partition” in the opening lines.
    I’m sorry I hate to do this; I don’t want to get niggly-piggly about terminology but I feel I gotta correct this because pol world.org is quite formative on people’s opinion. “Partition” is the imposition of a temporary boundary, exactly the same as the difference in a house between a partition and a wall. It’s a very politically-loaded word; Partition only means temporary but people have forever-and-a-day inferred that it means “false”.

    Examples of partition: Ireland is partitioned, Germany was partitioned after WWII, and partition was used time and again in Africa, Asia and the Americas by the colonising powers. One example of which is the following: the largely independent Mapuche polity was invaded in the late 19th entury and partitioned into Araucanía for Chile and Patagonia for Argentina. This The largest ethnic group of Native Americans in So America was reduced to subjects and then citizens of their respective states.

    The word you could have used there is “secession”. The issue of Catalonia and Spain is one of separatism, correct. Catalunya wants to secede from the Spanish state.

    Secondly, on the issue of greater sovereignty for Catalunya.
    The peoples of Iberia have a lot of similarities to each other but there are several differences that are sufficient for each to claim nationhood and seek to invest sovereignty in a state. It is only a unique set of historical circumstances that sees the Portuguese people stay out of a multi-lingual state encompassing all of Iberia.

    I don’t see why not the Catalonian people can secede from Spain. Of the many disparate peoples in the Reino de España (Kingdom of Spain), the Catalonians are arguably in a better position to do so given the wealth that is concentrated there.

    This is an issue that will not go away in Catalunya, and will return in other parts of Europe as a direct consequence of the mess the EU is currently in. (How I chuckle going to bed every night that ‘geniuses’ like Merkel are stuck for a solution).

    I have never bought the notion propagated in some circles within the broad Socialist movement that the nation state is a failed entity. Really!?!

    The evidence would suggest the opposite. The number of States has gone from around 60 when the United Nations was established in 1945 to some 200 today. Due to the fact that a lot of humanity is still at the clan-tribal stage of society, where relations based on kinship matter hugely (forming embryonic nations), and the 1,000’s of different languages in the world there are likely to be several hundred more sovereign nation states.

    Some brilliant scholars on the Left have written extensively on nationalism in a positive light. Desmond Greaves writing on Ireland is highly recommended. Also Kazimierz Kelles-Krauz, the Marxist Sociologist who studied nationalism in early 20th Century, and Volodymyr Vynnychenko, the Ukrainian Bolshevik who studied nationalism in early USSR.
    Sss-hh. Don’t mention the lack of sovereignty in the Irish state.
    The acknowledgement of the 1916 Rising by the Establishment and its nauseating, craven lackeys is simply a political convenience devoid of any real meaning!

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    Nice sexist undertone there. Very mature.

    Not that it matters but I'm not a woman, and I've ridden horses for years and have a great fondness for them. Don't even try to say that the "skills" of those barbarians terrifying horses and forcing them into dangerous situations are something to be admired. I don't think you'll find a single civilized person in the Irish equestrian community who'd agree with you. Harming animals for pleasure, whether its **** fighting, dog fighting or things like this is despicable and those who enjoy it are warped individuals. Someone who enjoys watching animals being hurt, terrified and tormented for nothing more than their own selfish pleasure are utter dregs and should take a long hard look at themselves.

    The nations being discussed in this thread have far greater and more worthy representations of their culture than this bottom feeding nonsense.
    Truly sorry

    I thought Saoirse was a female name, like Saoirse Ronan for example (its the only time ever i've seen that name ..). keep in mind i am not irish, so i meant nothing other than associating the name w an actress .. I meant no offense at all.

    Riden horses, so have I (not in Ireland) and we disagree but pretty much besides the point.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearse Monnet View Post
    Great thread, I’ve learned a lot reading thru it. It’s been going for a while but only seeing it now.

    Firstly, Cass, I just gotta address your words “potential partition” in the opening lines.
    I’m sorry I hate to do this; I don’t want to get niggly-piggly about terminology but I feel I gotta correct this because pol world.org is quite formative on people’s opinion. “Partition” is the imposition of a temporary boundary, exactly the same as the difference in a house between a partition and a wall. It’s a very politically-loaded word; Partition only means temporary but people have forever-and-a-day inferred that it means “false”.

    Examples of partition: Ireland is partitioned, Germany was partitioned after WWII, and partition was used time and again in Africa, Asia and the Americas by the colonising powers. One example of which is the following: the largely independent Mapuche polity was invaded in the late 19th entury and partitioned into Araucanía for Chile and Patagonia for Argentina. This The largest ethnic group of Native Americans in So America was reduced to subjects and then citizens of their respective states.

    The word you could have used there is “secession”. The issue of Catalonia and Spain is one of separatism, correct. Catalunya wants to secede from the Spanish state.

    Secondly, on the issue of greater sovereignty for Catalunya.
    The peoples of Iberia have a lot of similarities to each other but there are several differences that are sufficient for each to claim nationhood and seek to invest sovereignty in a state. It is only a unique set of historical circumstances that sees the Portuguese people stay out of a multi-lingual state encompassing all of Iberia.

    I don’t see why not the Catalonian people can secede from Spain. Of the many disparate peoples in the Reino de España (Kingdom of Spain), the Catalonians are arguably in a better position to do so given the wealth that is concentrated there.

    This is an issue that will not go away in Catalunya, and will return in other parts of Europe as a direct consequence of the mess the EU is currently in. (How I chuckle going to bed every night that ‘geniuses’ like Merkel are stuck for a solution).

    I have never bought the notion propagated in some circles within the broad Socialist movement that the nation state is a failed entity. Really!?!

    The evidence would suggest the opposite. The number of States has gone from around 60 when the United Nations was established in 1945 to some 200 today. Due to the fact that a lot of humanity is still at the clan-tribal stage of society, where relations based on kinship matter hugely (forming embryonic nations), and the 1,000’s of different languages in the world there are likely to be several hundred more sovereign nation states.

    Some brilliant scholars on the Left have written extensively on nationalism in a positive light. Desmond Greaves writing on Ireland is highly recommended. Also Kazimierz Kelles-Krauz, the Marxist Sociologist who studied nationalism in early 20th Century, and Volodymyr Vynnychenko, the Ukrainian Bolshevik who studied nationalism in early USSR
    .



    Spain is worried that if they do let Catalonia scede then there would be imposition of customs tarrifs and duties on goods leaving Spain by rail that Catalonia could do. If they lose Catalonia as a state then they would lose millions in revenue. The Spanish state will learn through trial and error that bully boy tactics (like Putin and his cohorts) are the biggest factor supporting the secession of these new states.
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    Truly sorry

    I thought Saoirse was a female name, like Saoirse Ronan for example (its the only time ever i've seen that name ..). keep in mind i am not irish, so i meant nothing other than associating the name w an actress .. I meant no offense at all.

    Riden horses, so have I (not in Ireland) and we disagree but pretty much besides the point.
    It is, and a rather lovely one. It means "freedom/liberty". "Saoirse go Deo" translates as "freedom forever".
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

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