Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 110

Thread: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,410

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Hardly; apart from Euskadi, Cataluña, and possibly Valencia and the Balearics, I cannot think of any province where Castillano has a competing language. The people of Castilla La Mancha, Castilla y León, Murcia, Andalucía, Exremadura, and so forth, use Castillano as a first language for sure.
    What do you mean hardly... youre talking about almost 20million people and about 40% of the population of Spain!!!!!! (and you forgot Galicia and Asturias

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    my bias

    what I was trying to say and this addresses Morticia' question above re "Why are they (Madrid) so desperately afraid of independence?" - if i read it right - once this fire is lit it will be very difficult to stop. Madrid has had a very hard time keeping a lid on these two groups (Basques and Catalans - the others are not real threats) for a very good reason... Basques differ from the rest of the spaniards more than you folks differ from your neighbors to the east. Difference is insularity provided by yr island makes for fighting for independence a little easier....

    my guess is that both Catalans, Basques, and Scots will have overwhelming support from Ireland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark? to exercise their independence if they so wish..... (I'm guessing and I may be completely wrong)

    Another reason Madrid is freaking out is the fact that the EU might 'silently' condone the whole gig, ie, before this was an issue of Spain's sovereignty but now it is -> not quite.
    Basques and Catalans (including the Balearics and most of Valencia) have a different culture, including languages, and in the case of the basques, ethnicity.

    The Spanish national identity was constructed upon old Castile and it's conquered territories,. i.e Andalucia, etc. Bulls and flamenco have as much to do with Catalonia and the Basque country as they do with Ireland. Spain was constructed as a greater Castille as it happened to be the strongest part of the country when it was formed. Castillians have a different mentality and historically have been centrist and conquerers whereby the catalans have always tended towards federalist arrangements and compromise. Castille absorbed all territories it gained vs. the crown of aragon added each new territory as a federal part of the kingdom.

    This clash of cosmo vision led to a long crusade, started with the Borbons and the Decreto de la nueva planta 1788 which took away all regional authority, centralised the state and went about imposing castillian culture and language on all the state, mainly through banning the other languages and cultural expressions. The policies of the fascist Franco regime were only an extension of this long drawn out policy of culturcide and linguacide.

    For that very reason, amongst many others, Both Catalonia and the Basque country should have a right to decide their future. Lets hope the tanks aren't actually rolled out but history tells us otherwise...

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,467

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    What do you mean hardly... youre talking about almost 20million people and about 40% of the population of Spain!!!!!! (and you forgot Galicia and Asturias
    Yes for Galicia the basis of the culture/language is galaico-portuguese (not sure this translates well into yr language)

    Not so sure about Asturias. I did live there sometime and all the folks i met were completely sold to Madrid... even met some descendents of the House of Asturias very interesting people -> when they walk you thru their 'private' church - but for the most part i felt they were resigned to the fact they had become "Spaniards" ..


    The policies of the fascist Franco regime were only an extension of this long drawn out policy of culturcide and linguacide.
    you sure linguacide exists in english? or do we have some direct translation issue here?

    I like it though ...looks like you guys should know how to kill a language? (ok this remark may belong elsewhere)


    For that very reason, amongst many others, Both Catalonia and the Basque country should have a right to decide their future. Lets hope the tanks aren't actually rolled out but history tells us otherwise...
    Cant wait to see what happens. The world today IS a very different digital place, you cant compare w even 5 years ago... Not sure Castille will get away with letting those tanks loose in Cataluña or in Basque Country...although for the Basques they can always claim whatever fighting terrorism i dont see what kind of claim they could have against the Catalans. And this may be the reason Madrid is growing anxious....

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    3,845

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    What do you mean hardly... youre talking about almost 20million people and about 40% of the population of Spain!!!!!! (and you forgot Galicia and Asturias
    I mentioned 4 out of 19 autonomous regions (most of which have several provinces). This small proportion merits "Hardly" in response to the claim that all the provinces of Spain want to use a language other than Castellano. Indeed, the Galicians do have their own language but in Asturias, Spanish is the only official language with little use of the local Asturian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    The Spanish national identity was constructed upon old Castile and it's conquered territories ...
    La Reconquista was a phenomenal success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    Bulls and flamenco have as much to do with Catalonia and the Basque country as they do with Ireland.
    You are quite mistaken. La gran fiesta nacional de España had Grade I corridas in the Plaza Monumental and Plaza Arenas, Barcelona which had the highest capacities in all of Spain for a century until they were forbidden by the Catalan government last year as a political demonstration that they were too Spanish. The corrida goes back centuries in the city. The first corrida de toros in Catalunya was in 1387, during the reign of Juan I, and was in Barcelona. The history of tauromaquia in Catalunya goes back almost three centuries but it was not until the beginning of the XIXth century when the Fiesta, as we now know it, took on an importance throughout Spain, including Catalunya which is when the first plazas were built. In this sense, la corrida is as much Catalan as Andalucian.
    http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/7768...orridas/toros/ The same can be said for Euskadi while there is no plaza de toros in Ireland nor tauromaquia tradition here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    Both Catalonia and the Basque country should have a right to decide their future. ...
    Your potted version of history seems to serve a bias in favor of the the promotion of the destruction of modern Spain rather than enlightening us about reality.
    Last edited by Holly; 14-12-2013 at 09:01 PM.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,410

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    I mentioned 4 out of 19 autonomous regions (most of which have several provinces). This small proportion merits "Hardly" in response to the claim that all the provinces of Spain want to use a language other than Castellano. Indeed, the Galicians do have their own language but in Asturias, Spanish is the only official language with little use of the local Asturian.

    Language use is not related to langauge oficiality. 4 out of 19 autonomous regions which, I repeat, make up almost 40% of the population of Spain... actually 7 regions


    La Reconquista was a phenomenal success.

    It was, but it built a greater castille rather than anything representative of all the cultures of Iberia

    You are quite mistaken. La gran fiesta nacional de España had Grade I corridas in the Plaza Monumental and Plaza Arenas, Barcelona which had the highest capacities in all of Spain for a century until they were forbidden by the Catalan government last year as a political demonstration that they were too Spanish. The corrida goes back centuries in the city. The first corrida de toros in Catalunya was in 1387, during the reign of Juan I, and was in Barcelona. The history of tauromaquia in Catalunya goes back almost three centuries but it was not until the beginning of the XIXth century when the Fiesta, as we now know it, took on an importance throughout Spain, including Catalunya which is when the first plazas were built. In this sense, la corrida is as much Catalan as Andalucian.
    http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/7768...orridas/toros/ The same can be said for Euskadi while there is no plaza de toros in Ireland nor tauromaquia tradition here.

    The bulls were prohibited in Catalunya cause people genuinely didnt want them. The attendances were woeful and the same goes for Euskadi... Yes it may have been a popular ''sport'' in the past but there were also hundred of thousands of Irishmen in the British army pre-independence... Things have changed and though in the past Catalonia and the Basque country may have adopted castillian culture it is now being repulsed.... adopted being the key word...

    Your potted version of history seems to serve a bias in favor of the the promotion of the destruction of modern Spain rather than enlightening us about reality.
    Your lack of knowledge of Spanish history, or your willingness to swallow the establishment narrative are astounding.....

    Reality is that most Catalans want independence, they are sick of having their language and culture run into the ground.....

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,467

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    You are quite mistaken. La gran fiesta nacional de España had Grade I corridas in the Plaza Monumental and Plaza Arenas, Barcelona which had the highest capacities in all of Spain for a century until they were forbidden by the Catalan government last year as a political demonstration that they were too Spanish. The corrida goes back centuries in the city. The first corrida de toros in Catalunya was in 1387, during the reign of Juan I, and was in Barcelona. The history of tauromaquia in Catalunya goes back almost three centuries but it was not until the beginning of the XIXth century when the Fiesta, as we now know it, took on an importance throughout Spain, including Catalunya which is when the first plazas were built. In this sense, la corrida is as much Catalan as Andalucian.
    http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/7768...orridas/toros/ The same can be said for Euskadi while there is no plaza de toros in Ireland nor tauromaquia tradition here.


    Your potted version of history seems to serve a bias in favor of the the promotion of the destruction of modern Spain rather than enlightening us about reality.
    Oh ...ok... this is not very good here.

    I have no idea why you compute flamenco with 'tauromaquia'?

    running of the bulls, bullfighting is done pretty much all over Iberia plus some provinces of southwestern France (old Aragon?) and i think northwestern France as well..

    Flamenco is quintessential Andalucia and I have absolutely no idea why even mentioning these two together...

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    3,845

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    ... I have no idea why you compute flamenco with 'tauromaquia'?

    running of the bulls, bullfighting is done pretty much all over Iberia plus some provinces of southwestern France (old Aragon?) and i think northwestern France as well..

    Flamenco is quintessential Andalucia and I have absolutely no idea why even mentioning these two together...
    I never mentioned flamenco. My post to to highlight Ogiol's misrepresentation of Spanish history.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,467

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    I never mentioned flamenco. My post to to highlight Ogiol's misrepresentation of Spanish history.
    I stand corrected. Looks like Ogiol mentioned flamenco.

    having said that What exactly is the connection btw bullfighting and Separatism in Europe?

    Plus want to go ahead and expand on this one: "Your potted version of history seems to serve a bias in favor of the the promotion of the destruction of modern Spain rather than enlightening us about reality."

    Ahhh the Destruction of Modern Spain

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    3,845

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    I stand corrected. Looks like Ogiol mentioned flamenco.
    Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    having said that What exactly is the connection btw bullfighting and Separatism in Europe?
    There is no genuine connection; the Catalan government has attempted to portray la corrida de toros as "Spanish", begging the question that Spanish and Catalan traditions are not only distinct but at odds. I pointed out that the tradition of tauromaquia is as much Catalan as any other region of Spain and more than most. Mexicans, by the way, would scoff at the idea that they are any less Mexican because they have corridas there and the same could be said of Colombians or Peruvians. Hostility to los toros by Catalan separatist politicians is meant to use ignorance of history to serve their politics. It is akin to Irish nationalists who indoctrinated children in Dublin that it is shameful to follow Liverpool FC because soccer is a "foreign" game. Such attitudes are pure ignorance.


    Playing a "foreign" game. LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    Plus want to go ahead and expand on this one: "Your potted version of history seems to serve a bias in favor of the the promotion of the destruction of modern Spain rather than enlightening us about reality."
    It is the difference between history and myth in the service of politics.


  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,467

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    I pointed out that the tradition of tauromaquia is as much Catalan as any other region of Spain and more than most.
    more than most?

    not sure about this statement. I place bullfighting as a tradition to certain very localized areas of Spain and Portugal, and some villages in the western part of France but somehow i miss the 'more than most' as regards Cataluña and bulls. Maybe under Franco there were bullfights in Basque Country as well.

    Plight of the bull and mistreatment of animals aside of course cos me I actually like it but g-d forbid I should ever admit it in front of my friends. as far as entertainment goes long before Hollywood put together a show of force, blood, sex and rock'n'roll we were bullfighting in Iberia ->(lets say I like the boyz outfits). Some people will plant their kids in front of the TV and let them watch all kinds of gore and sex yet are fast on their feet to condemn bullfighting. There are some problems there as regards to fairness etc but at the very least, every now and then The Bull takes the cake. AND it is cos you never know when 'the bull takes the cake' that arenas are always full.


    It is akin to Irish nationalists who indoctrinated children in Dublin that it is shameful to follow Liverpool FC because soccer is a "foreign" game. Such attitudes are pure ignorance.
    or it could be cos they think that soccer is for the 'other' class


    It is the difference between history and myth in the service of politics.
    I dont get this. Both history and myth play equal parts in the service of politics IMHO.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    3,845

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    more than most?
    Yes, la corrida, I pointed out was celebrated to higher capacity crowds in Barcelona than any other part of Spain. First class corridas were held in only six cities in Spain and Barcelona's two plazas held 36,500+ aficionados. The Calss I corridas in Madrid's two plazas could accommodate only 32,000+. Only four other cities had such top class corridas: San Sebastian, Sevilla, Valencia, and Zaragoza. So, you see, Barcelona in Catalunya celebrated la corrida more than most cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    not sure about this statement. I place bullfighting as a tradition to certain very localized areas of Spain and Portugal, and some villages in the western part of France but somehow i miss the 'more than most' as regards Cataluña and bulls.
    I hope you are now more sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    Maybe under Franco there were bullfights in Basque Country as well.
    Without doubt. I already mentioned that the same could be said of Euskadi aficón as Catalunya. You will see above that San Sebastian (Donostia) has Class I corridas and Class II corridas are held in Pamplona (Iruña) and Bilbao (Bilbo). The famous matador, Castor Jaureguibeitia Ibarra "Cocherito de Bilbao" came from Bilbao and was noted for his skill in placing banderillas. The oldest tauromaquia club in Spain is named after him. Diego Mazquiarán "Fortuna" was born in Vizcaya (Bizkaia) and was the first matador to perform in the new plaza in Madrid in 1931. On 22 January 1928, on the Gran Via in Madrid, he killed a toro bravo that had escaped from the corrals and had injured eleven people and killed one. For this he was awarded the Cruz de Beneficencia. Martín Aguero was from Bilbao and was noted for his volapié* (running toward the bull and leaping at the moment of truth). Félix Rodríguez was from Santander and was the subject of several Ruano LLopis paintings.** Gil Tovar was born in Barcelona. Although stylish, he was a poor killer. Mario Cabré was also from Barcelona and was accomplished not only as a matador but also as an actor, poet, and playwright. From Bilbao comes José María Recondo and Manuel Chacarte. From Barcelona there is Paco Corpas. I do believe I have made my point. The Catalan government's ban on la corrida is based on bogus propaganda.


    *Volapié


    **Félix Rodríguez by Ruano LLopis

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    ...I dont get this. Both history and myth play equal parts in the service of politics IMHO.
    It is dangerous to mix history and myth.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,410

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Right.


    There is no genuine connection; the Catalan government has attempted to portray la corrida de toros as "Spanish", begging the question that Spanish and Catalan traditions are not only distinct but at odds. I pointed out that the tradition of tauromaquia is as much Catalan as any other region of Spain and more than most. Mexicans, by the way, would scoff at the idea that they are any less Mexican because they have corridas there and the same could be said of Colombians or Peruvians. Hostility to los toros by Catalan separatist politicians is meant to use ignorance of history to serve their politics. It is akin to Irish nationalists who indoctrinated children in Dublin that it is shameful to follow Liverpool FC because soccer is a "foreign" game. Such attitudes are pure ignorance.


    Playing a "foreign" game. LOL


    It is the difference between history and myth in the service of politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Yes, la corrida, I pointed out was celebrated to higher capacity crowds in Barcelona than any other part of Spain. First class corridas were held in only six cities in Spain and Barcelona's two plazas held 36,500+ aficionados. The Calss I corridas in Madrid's two plazas could accommodate only 32,000+. Only four other cities had such top class corridas: San Sebastian, Sevilla, Valencia, and Zaragoza. So, you see, Barcelona in Catalunya celebrated la corrida more than most cities.


    I hope you are now more sure.


    Without doubt. I already mentioned that the same could be said of Euskadi aficón as Catalunya. You will see above that San Sebastian (Donostia) has Class I corridas and Class II corridas are held in Pamplona (Iruña) and Bilbao (Bilbo). The famous matador, Castor Jaureguibeitia Ibarra "Cocherito de Bilbao" came from Bilbao and was noted for his skill in placing banderillas. The oldest tauromaquia club in Spain is named after him. Diego Mazquiarán "Fortuna" was born in Vizcaya (Bizkaia) and was the first matador to perform in the new plaza in Madrid in 1931. On 22 January 1928, on the Gran Via in Madrid, he killed a toro bravo that had escaped from the corrals and had injured eleven people and killed one. For this he was awarded the Cruz de Beneficencia. Martín Aguero was from Bilbao and was noted for his volapié* (running toward the bull and leaping at the moment of truth). Félix Rodríguez was from Santander and was the subject of several Ruano LLopis paintings.** Gil Tovar was born in Barcelona. Although stylish, he was a poor killer. Mario Cabré was also from Barcelona and was accomplished not only as a matador but also as an actor, poet, and playwright. From Bilbao comes José María Recondo and Manuel Chacarte. From Barcelona there is Paco Corpas. I do believe I have made my point. The Catalan government's ban on la corrida is based on bogus propaganda.


    *Volapié


    **Félix Rodríguez by Ruano LLopis


    It is dangerous to mix history and myth.
    While your knowledge of Bullfighting, or torture as many would call it, is impressive you have erected it up as a straw man in order to avoid answering any other point made in my post above?

    Ley de la nueva planta, anyone?

    So, crux of the situation. Spain, following a Borbon ideal has been trying to centralise the state since the arrival of said parasitical family. This process of centralisation, following the French model, also involved the Herderian ideology of one state one language, which was common back then during the 18th 19th and even 20th century. This involved basically erecting the state apparatus as monolingual, courts any other interaction with the state had to be carried out in castillian. Naturally (for that time anyway), it also meant centralising power in Madrid.

    Now considering that since Spains unification at the beginning of the 16th century, they had maintained a quasi-federal system, whereby all the old kingdoms had autonomy of law and their own parliament of nobles, this new centralised model brought in by the Borbons caused a serious strife between elites, resulting in wars in the 18th century, and notably, the Carlist wars of the 19th century, which basically saw two factions on either side of the centralist vs. autonomy axis. The centralist forces won out eventually and thus their project of one state, one language one culture became dominant.

    But in order to unify this disperse country, they had to create a unified Identity. So, certain cultural expressions were chosen over others to depict the new unified Spain, they were, but not limited to, Bulls and Flamenco. Primo de Rivera and Franco both took this to extremes and bullfighting was declared La Fiesta Nacional. This associated it with the well documented cultural and linguistic repression of the time and as such has led to a growing rejecting of bullfighting by those who suffered that cultural and linguistic repression. That and the growing animal rights movement have led to a steep decline in the popularity of the bulls.

    Apart from all that, Spain since it's unification, partly by dynastical marriage and partly by invasion and war (Navarre 1512) has never been able to solve of face up to it's multilingual and multicultural nature. Many attempts have been made, either by trying to put a single language above all others (castillian), promote an arbitrarily chosen set cultural expressions, (why not castellers?) and more recently by creating a pseudo-federal state. These attempts have all failed, and thus the political organisation of the spanish state has continuously failed to match the multi-cultural, multi-linguistic and multi-identity nature of reality.

    The day when Catalunya, Euskal Herria, Galicia and any other parts of Spain agree to federally unite into a state is the only circumstance that I can see a spanish state working, free from nationalistic antagonism. Though it might be a few centuries too late for that at the this stage....

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    3,845

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    ... certain cultural expressions were chosen over others to depict the new unified Spain, they were, but not limited to, Bulls and Flamenco. Primo de Rivera and Franco both took this to extremes and bullfighting was declared La Fiesta Nacional. This associated it with the well documented cultural and linguistic repression of the time and as such has led to a growing rejecting of bullfighting by those who suffered that cultural and linguistic repression. ...
    I have demonstrated that la gran fiesta nacional de España existed for a long time before Franco and it enjoyed afición from the beginning in Catalunya and Euskadi.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,410

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    I have demonstrated that la gran fiesta nacional de España existed for a long time before Franco and it enjoyed afición from the beginning in Catalunya and Euskadi.
    I didnt say that you didnt. Do you misunderstand me? The ''fiesta'' was expropriated by dictators, and held up as a culturally defining ideal. The fact that this was done in parallel to cultural and linguistic repression, led to a rejection of the 'fiesta' because of its association with the dictatorships.

    Though the origins seem to be more Roman and not specifically iberian. The first modern corrida was only in the 1700's..... and took place in Andalucia. That it spead throughout the realm and to different countries during a specific time period doesn't mean anything with regards this debate...

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    3,845

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    I didnt say that you didnt. Do you misunderstand me? The ''fiesta'' was expropriated by dictators, and held up as a culturally defining ideal. The fact that this was done in parallel to cultural and linguistic repression, led to a rejection of the 'fiesta' because of its association with the dictatorships.
    I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    Though the origins seem to be more Roman and not specifically iberian. The first modern corrida was only in the 1700's..... and took place in Andalucia. That it spead throughout the realm and to different countries during a specific time period doesn't mean anything with regards this debate...
    I mentioned in Post 18 above that the corrida goes back centuries in the Barcelona. "The first corrida de toros in Catalunya was in 1387, during the reign of Juan I, and was in Barcelona. The history of tauromaquia in Catalunya goes back almost three centuries but it was not until the beginning of the XIXth century when the Fiesta, as we now know it, took on an importance throughout Spain, including Catalunya which is when the first plazas were built."

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,410

    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    I disagree.

    I disagree with your disagreement...


    I mentioned in Post 18 above that the corrida goes back centuries in the Barcelona. "The first corrida de toros in Catalunya was in 1387, during the reign of Juan I, and was in Barcelona. The history of tauromaquia in Catalunya goes back almost three centuries but it was not until the beginning of the XIXth century when the Fiesta, as we now know it, took on an importance throughout Spain, including Catalunya which is when the first plazas were built."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting

    http://www.sportssearchdata.com/arti...ing/Page1.html

    It's much more ancient and convoluted than what you're presenting it to be. The first modern style corrida seems to have been in Ronda, Málaga province if I'm not wrong in 1726....

    The moors had previously changed the ancient practise into a more ritualised event with horsemen...

    Bull fighting, or challenging goes back to mesapotamian times ...

    Now hows about dealing with the cultural and linguistic repression dealt out by the castillian elite especially since the Borbons came to power? No.... just bull?
    Last edited by Ogiol; 16-12-2013 at 01:50 PM. Reason: spelling

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Share us
Follow Us