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Thread: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

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    Default Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Over a million people on the streets today in Catalonia, calling for nationhood and protesting against a recent Court ruling against Catalonian nationhood.

    Separatism and potential partition seems to have got a hold in Belgium too and the U.K. has regionalised more that would have seemed possible.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/cro...ng-465028.html

    Will the EU become the de facto government, with old nation states tending to revert to older regional linguistic and cultural entities ?

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    To a large extent Spain is an artificial construct People are Basque, Catalan and Galician before they are Spanish. Funny enough that was always advanced as the reason that the Spanish national football team never did well. People supported Bacca or Real as the regional super powers and cared very little for the national team.

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    A Dutch chap once explained to me as well that in the Netherlands there is a similar feeling in that people identify more with their region rather than the political nation of the Netherlands.

    You wouldn't think it of either Spain or the Netherlands from looking at the crowds supporting each team for today but apparently thats the case and why the Dutch team have had a strange history of walkouts of major players before big tournaments - thye simply don't have that historical country before all else mentality. Take note Mr Roy Keane....

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    The Cap'ns lady is a Barcelona lass and I noticed when I was reading her CV a year or two back that she has fluent Spanish naturally along with fluent French and English and there to complete that section she insists upon putting in 'fluent Catalan' even though t'ain't much use to her on a CV in London... its there alright in the blood and I don't think she's in favour of saving a line of space on the paper by leaving it out...

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    I was reading a post somewhere once from a lad in a bar in Barcelona. Spain were playing and the match was on the tv. He said when Spain scored not only did no one cheer but no one in the bar even looked up at the TV.

    Was told by someone earlier that large sections of the crowd at the Fiesta of San Fermin in Pamplona today are expected to be sporting Dutch Jerseys (and they won't be from Holland either...)

    These people are no more Spanish than we are and they have often felt the heel of the Spanish state on their necks. They deserve the right to look after their own affairs.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Oh I agree that this jamming together of regional peoples under a 'nationhood' construct has been an appalling mess in Europe and elsewhere. The Catalans are a seperate people and are not Spanish by any measure I can think of.. I don't really think there is such a thing as an Iberian people.

    If you think of all the blood shed in Europe alone so some egotistical monster can try to force one culture as the umbrella system for many different peoples you begin to see the horrendous butcher's bill for that kind of thinking.

    Politically there is a debate among historians at the moment I believe whether we are now seeing the end of the nation state and there's some evidence for that but I suspect the debate will fall across two camps... those who want the nation state replaced by supranational constructs such as the EU and those who wish to promote the myvillage/mytown/myregion/mycountry view.

    For myself I think there is enormous benefit to be had in reversing the historical assumption on Europe that it should be built like a cloud over Europe and speak down to the villages. I would like to see mutual cooperation built on solid grounds from the vilage upwards and not imposed by a Rompuoy downwards.

    We may save ourselves a lot of angst and possibly even blood that I think may well be spilt unnecessarily as an unnatural bureaucracy imposed from above tries to take control.

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25353086


    Justice Minister Alberto Ruiz-Gallardon has said Spain will vow to block any referendum on Catalonian independence.
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Catalunya has announced their referendum question:

    Do you want Catalunya to be a state?

    if yes:

    Do you want this state to be independent

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    Catalunya has announced their referendum question:

    Do you want Catalunya to be a state?

    if yes:

    Do you want this state to be independent
    It seems the two question format was a compromise to get the greatest amount of support possible in the Catalan assembly. The left nationalist party ERC wanted a single question on an independent state.
    The four parties that reached agreement have 88 seats in the 135 seat assembly.

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyJoe View Post
    It seems the two question format was a compromise to get the greatest amount of support possible in the Catalan assembly. The left nationalist party ERC wanted a single question on an independent state.
    The four parties that reached agreement have 88 seats in the 135 seat assembly.

    Correctisimo ICV are generally federalists though their voters are split between federalism and independence. ERC are a bit peeved at the question, but it does have the benefit of a double positive answer for independence.

    Here's a video explaining the vote

    Obviously the spanish establishment, utterly lacking in any democratic culture, morals or even ideas, have come out all guns blazing, threatening that the vote wont take place. But aside from those theatrics, a good sign of their real tactics can be seen in today's El Mundo, with the idea that if there is a vote, all spain must vote, and also that madrid will hold back the money.

    Interestingly though, Catalunya has already created their own 'shadow' treasury, who have been gathering taxes for the last two years, not everyone, but its been gaining presence.

    Tanks on the streets of Barcelona again anyone??

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan View Post
    Oh I agree that this jamming together of regional peoples under a 'nationhood' construct has been an appalling mess in Europe and elsewhere. The Catalans are a seperate people and are not Spanish by any measure I can think of.. I don't really think there is such a thing as an Iberian people.
    Oh me g-d you would think there is such thing as 'Iberian people' IF you were Iberian

    by the way: LOVE this thread!

    lets see what else you folks have to say bout this

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    Obviously the spanish establishment, utterly lacking in any democratic culture, morals or even ideas, have come out all guns blazing, threatening that the vote wont take place.

    Tanks on the streets of Barcelona again anyone??
    Yes! I believe this will be the case... once I had an argument with a 'Castilian' as to why i may find a good explanation for ETA (.... oldest ethnic group in Europe etc...) only to have the lady fr***k out on me that I 'supported' terrorism. And that's that! All other 'provinces' of Spain secretly yearn for the day Castilian will no longer be forced down their throats.

    Will be very interesting to follow, especially from the perspective of all other 'little' european brethren!!

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Seem to be a lot of "splitters" out there at the moment. Personally, I'm backing Scotland's bid for freedom, but I found it sinisterly interesting that the Spanish government appeared to be putting the boot into that as well (none of their business, IMHO, and likely to be counterproductive too). Why are they so desperately afraid of independence?
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    ... All other 'provinces' of Spain secretly yearn for the day Castilian will no longer be forced down their throats. ...
    Hardly; apart from Euskadi, Cataluña, and possibly Valencia and the Balearics, I cannot think of any province where Castillano has a competing language. The people of Castilla La Mancha, Castilla y León, Murcia, Andalucía, Exremadura, and so forth, use Castillano as a first language for sure.

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    Default Re: Catalonia Demonstrations - Separatism and Regionalism in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Hardly; apart from Euskadi, Cataluña, and possibly Valencia and the Balearics, I cannot think of any province where Castillano has a competing language. The people of Castilla La Mancha, Castilla y León, Murcia, Andalucía, Exremadura, and so forth, use Castillano as a first language for sure.
    my bias

    what I was trying to say and this addresses Morticia' question above re "Why are they (Madrid) so desperately afraid of independence?" - if i read it right - once this fire is lit it will be very difficult to stop. Madrid has had a very hard time keeping a lid on these two groups (Basques and Catalans - the others are not real threats) for a very good reason... Basques differ from the rest of the spaniards more than you folks differ from your neighbors to the east. Difference is insularity provided by yr island makes for fighting for independence a little easier....

    my guess is that both Catalans, Basques, and Scots will have overwhelming support from Ireland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark? to exercise their independence if they so wish..... (I'm guessing and I may be completely wrong)

    Another reason Madrid is freaking out is the fact that the EU might 'silently' condone the whole gig, ie, before this was an issue of Spain's sovereignty but now it is -> not quite.

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