Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 47

Thread: Ballymurphy Massacre - Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Cork
    Posts
    2,375

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Christy Walsh View Post
    Whether they picked their victims off by carefully aimed shots or just wrecklessy, using high velocity automatic rifles, shot up busy streets --the 11 dead where a reasonable expectation under those circumstances. With a Church in the line of fire and it being a residentual area -reasonable for at least 2 of the dead to be a priest or a woman. Still just as atrocious had it all been men or boys.
    This was during the internment time wasn't it ? Has anyone any links as to how it was reported at the time ? All I remember was "gun battles ".

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,964

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    This was during the internment time wasn't it ? Has anyone any links as to how it was reported at the time ? All I remember was "gun battles ".


    The shootings in Ballymurphy happened during the Army's Operation Demetrius, during which people arrested on suspicion of involvement in paramilitary activity were interned.

    According to the Catholic Church, the accounts include "a serving member of the British army, a member of the British Navy who returned to his ship shortly after the shootings and an ex-Irish Guardsman".

    "Those who compiled the report indicate that on the basis of the eyewitness accounts, 'we are convinced that the British army units involved, whether through fear or vindictiveness, unnecessarily fired a large number of rounds into the waste grounds across which innocent men, women and children were fleeing'.

    In a statement, it said the report found the people killed were not caught in crossfire, and there was "a sufficient weight of evidence to indict the soldiers on the roof of the Springmartin flats".

    Dr Treanor will reveal further details about the church's documents on Friday.
    http://rsmforum.proboards.com/index....ay&thread=3992

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,101

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    I was in jail with a few IRA guys who lived there -they said nobody could move for hours --ambulances could not get in but sat around corners out of line of fire. The dead and wounded could not be carried down the streets so the IRA guys/locals knocked through holes from one house to the next where the wounded were passed to the waiting ambulances.

    And had the IRA been doing anything with the everyone pinned down for fear of being shot the army could have moved in and arrested anyone they wanted. If I remember right they made a few arrests later and one man was shot and killed with a plastic bullet while lying face down inside Henry Tagart barracks.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,628

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    Who believed the story about Aiden McAnespie ? Not even Paisley would have believed that one.
    Would this then not merely highlight the arrogance of the British and their contempt for Irish life

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    On the other hand we've been told that Adams deliberately held back a unit from going to the defence of beleaguered people on the grounds that it was good for the cause that they took a battering.
    And shots fired at troops in busy areas were called "teasers ". I don't know what that means myself.
    You know that somebody is in trouble when they start to play the 'Adams whataboutery' card.
    "Do not be misled by the promises of politicians. Remember that the whole history of Ireland is a record of betrayals by politicians and statesmen, and remembering this, spurn their lying promises and stand up for a United Ireland - an Ireland broad based upon the union of Labour and Nationality." - James Connolly.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,101

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The shootings in Ballymurphy happened during the Army's Operation Demetrius, during which people arrested on suspicion of involvement in paramilitary activity were interned.



    http://rsmforum.proboards.com/index....ay&thread=3992
    Couple of years ago I spotted an interesting issue with John Hume case from 1972 (its a very short judgment 2 pages).

    The Brits were under the Jurisdiction of the NI Government which had no power to pass legislation conferring powers to the military, "accordingly, the purported conferment on officers and members of Her Majesty's forces of powers relating to military matters which had been created by legislation by or under the Parliament of Northern Ireland was void and of no effect."



    As we know, "The Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, Brian Faulkner, has introduced a new law giving the authorities the power to indefinitely detain suspected terrorists without trial. The decision by Stormont, the government in Northern Ireland, to implement the new measures was made in the wake of escalating violence and increased bombings in the province and the threat to Northern Ireland's economy." He had no authority to send the army in to make any arrests from 1969 to 1972.

    So when the Brits amended the law to protect the army from liability (passed through parliment in 24 hours) the law cannot be retrospective (make legal what were illegal arrests). The Brits were focused on protecting the soldiers involved from legal liability so no body could sue them. But that does address the other half of the equation --those illegally arrested from being recognized has having been arrested illegally -regardless of the soldiers being protected from liability --the Government still is liable for the illegal arrests. The numbers illegally arrested would be in thousands ie from 1969 until 1972 (covers Internment).

    This would also apply to anyone stopped and searched without arrest.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,964

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Christy Walsh View Post
    Couple of years ago I spotted an interesting issue with John Hume case from 1972 (its a very short judgment 2 pages).

    The Brits were under the Jurisdiction of the NI Government which had no power to pass legislation conferring powers to the military, "accordingly, the purported conferment on officers and members of Her Majesty's forces of powers relating to military matters which had been created by legislation by or under the Parliament of Northern Ireland was void and of no effect."

    As we know, "The Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, Brian Faulkner, has introduced a new law giving the authorities the power to indefinitely detain suspected terrorists without trial. The decision by Stormont, the government in Northern Ireland, to implement the new measures was made in the wake of escalating violence and increased bombings in the province and the threat to Northern Ireland's economy." He had no authority to send the army in to make any arrests from 1969 to 1972.

    So when the Brits amended the law to protect the army from liability (passed through parliment in 24 hours) the law cannot be retrospective (make legal what were illegal arrests). The Brits were focused on protecting the soldiers involved from legal liability so no body could sue them. But that does address the other half of the equation --those illegally arrested from being recognized has having been arrested illegally -regardless of the soldiers being protected from liability --the Government still is liable for the illegal arrests. The numbers illegally arrested would be in thousands ie from 1969 until 1972 (covers Internment).

    This would also apply to anyone stopped and searched without arrest.
    I think I see your point although I'm not a legal person. The individual soldiers were indemnified, but the State was not ?

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,101

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I think I see your point although I'm not a legal person. The individual soldiers were indemnified, but the State was not ?
    Exactly. But it has never been recognised that all those illegally arrested had a case --the presumption probably made by lawyers at the time was that the law covered both protecting the soldiers in away that justified the arrests --but (to labour it) the arrests could never be justified as they were illegal.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,964

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Christy Walsh View Post
    Exactly. But it has never been recognised that all those illegally arrested had a case --the presumption probably made by lawyers at the time was that the law covered both protecting the soldiers in away that justified the arrests --but (to labour it) the arrests could never be justified as they were illegal.
    Would you like to see people take that issue on ?

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,101

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Would you like to see people take that issue on ?
    That is a matter for those affected. But if the Army were acting illegally then anyone shot dead by them was illegally killed which if one were to observe the full letter of the law then that would incorporate any armed IRA Volunteers killed let alone civilians.

    In light of the whole Unionist hype about how the Civil Rights Association was a front for the relatively nonexistant IRA. History has proved different but Unionists wanted to be ruthless with the Nationalist community and that was the way to do it. When I read the Cameron Report what jumped out at me (Para 47) was William Craig, Minister for Home Affairs’ blatant desire for violence against nationalists.

    Cameron reports a conversation he had where Craig refers to a previous march which, “was allowed to proceed, and there were merely arrests and subsequent court proceedings against the organisers .” This is a clear indication of his disatisfaction and wanted the marchers treated outside of due process of law.

    If one considers this to be even a minority view within Unionist Government Ministers then with escalting dissent on the streets of nationalsit districts it is not difficult to see how this kind of thinking could have eventually concluded in a desire that troops were to kill as they wished to teach the nationalsits a bloody lesson.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granny Madden's
    Posts
    6,140

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Christy Walsh View Post
    That is a matter for those affected. But if the Army were acting illegally then anyone shot dead by them was illegally killed which if one were to observe the full letter of the law then that would incorporate any armed IRA Volunteers killed let alone civilians.

    In light of the whole Unionist hype about how the Civil Rights Association was a front for the relatively nonexistant IRA. History has proved different but Unionists wanted to be ruthless with the Nationalist community and that was the way to do it. When I read the Cameron Report what jumped out at me (Para 47) was William Craig, Minister for Home Affairs’ blatant desire for violence against nationalists.

    Cameron reports a conversation he had where Craig refers to a previous march which, “was allowed to proceed, and there were merely arrests and subsequent court proceedings against the organisers .” This is a clear indication of his disatisfaction and wanted the marchers treated outside of due process of law.

    If one considers this to be even a minority view within Unionist Government Ministers then with escalting dissent on the streets of nationalsit districts it is not difficult to see how this kind of thinking could have eventually concluded in a desire that troops were to kill as they wished to teach the nationalsits a bloody lesson.

    In Henry Kelly's (Of Game for a Laugh Fame) book from the time, I recall a section relating to the then Home Minister in Stormont, John Taylor. After an early riot in Derry, a local man had been killed and the death resulted in the trouble abating for a while. Taylor noted this and suggested to the military that it would be a good way of quelling future outbreaks.

    Anyone remember Taylor's nickname?
    http://ancruiskeenlawnmower.wordpress.com/

    If dreams were lightning, thunder was desire, this whole place would have burned down, a long time ago.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Cork
    Posts
    2,375

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Christy Walsh View Post
    That is a matter for those affected. But if the Army were acting illegally then anyone shot dead by them was illegally killed which if one were to observe the full letter of the law then that would incorporate any armed IRA Volunteers killed let alone civilians.

    In light of the whole Unionist hype about how the Civil Rights Association was a front for the relatively nonexistant IRA. History has proved different but Unionists wanted to be ruthless with the Nationalist community and that was the way to do it. When I read the Cameron Report what jumped out at me (Para 47) was William Craig, Minister for Home Affairs’ blatant desire for violence against nationalists.

    Cameron reports a conversation he had where Craig refers to a previous march which, “was allowed to proceed, and there were merely arrests and subsequent court proceedings against the organisers .” This is a clear indication of his disatisfaction and wanted the marchers treated outside of due process of law.

    If one considers this to be even a minority view within Unionist Government Ministers then with escalting dissent on the streets of nationalsit districts it is not difficult to see how this kind of thinking could have eventually concluded in a desire that troops were to kill as they wished to teach the nationalsits a bloody lesson.
    Your theory has Unionist ministers dictating the pace to the Westminister Government Christy. I've always been of the opinion that Westminister knew little or nothing about Stormont until the Civil Rights marches flashed across the TeeVee screens and didn't particularily like what they saw. The treatment of the IRA as terrorists and the view of how the nationalist community had been treated were seperate things imo.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,843

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    Your theory has Unionist ministers dictating the pace to the Westminister Government Christy. I've always been of the opinion that Westminister knew little or nothing about Stormont until the Civil Rights marches flashed across the TeeVee screens and didn't particularily like what they saw. The treatment of the IRA as terrorists and the view of how the nationalist community had been treated were seperate things imo.
    That was the view that the Britsh govt were out of touch particulary in NI matters at that time. Thatcher changed all that which typifies a reverse gear and backed the unionist's view re their fears. It was a godsend to Rev Paisley at that time.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,964

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    There was Kent State in 1970 (67 rounds fired into a peaceful campus demonstration) , and the Black Panthers shot in their beds (1969).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton





    I was just watching "Missing" showing more of the same in Chile in 1972 after the coup.

    There seems to have been an international reflex to put the people back into their boxes.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 31-07-2010 at 11:53 PM.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,584

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Nice of the Catholic Hierachy to release this "undisclosed information" 40 years after the fact.
    I'm guessing that gimp Cahal Daly withheld it all these years.
    One of their own Priests was killed ffs and they withheld information on his killing.
    Sums it up.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,101

    Default Re: Families call for inquiry into 11 deaths in 1971 by the Parachute Regiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsedmethodist View Post
    Your theory has Unionist ministers dictating the pace to the Westminister Government Christy. I've always been of the opinion that Westminister knew little or nothing about Stormont until the Civil Rights marches flashed across the TeeVee screens and didn't particularily like what they saw. The treatment of the IRA as terrorists and the view of how the nationalist community had been treated were seperate things imo.
    I think it was convenient for the Brits to pretend that they had no idea. An IRA campagn had just ended in the late 50's. The Civil Rights Campaign started in the early 60's. Loyalists were on the street killing in '66.... there was a build up. Once matters were broadcast -ops! the cat was out and the Brits played dumb. Regardless the Brit Gov was legally responsible under the Governance of Ireland Act. MP in Parliment were asking why Subjects of the Crown in NI were treated so appalingly.

    Marc Mulholland, Northern Ireland at the Cross Roads notes at page 163 that as a result of the unprovoked violence from the police O’Neill warned his Cabinet that ‘repression’ would no longer work and reforms were inevitable. O’Neill asked his cabinet, “ Can any of us truthfully say in the confines of this room that the minority have no grievance calling for a remedy?”

    In fairness there was a significant number of Unionists prepared for change but Paisley, Criag and others escalated the whole thing to what lead to 'The Troubles'.

    Paisley and Co created the myth that O'Neill was an aloof individal disconnected to Orange grass roots. That has stood uncontested for many years but is such an individual is likely to ever be elected let alone become PM of NI. When O'Neill eventually resigned he did so after being beaten by a narrow majority --Violent Unionism/Terrorism won over moderate Unionism. We all suffered.

    How you seperate the treatment of nationalist as ibeing seperate baffles me --IRA, Nationalism, Unionism, Civil Rights etc were all integral and none mutually exclusive --if I understanbd you right.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Share us
Follow Us