a severe attack of diameter

[Andrew49]

That was quite common re trials as we were the guinea pigs for injections. The medical files have all disappeared without any trace.

Heard from an old deaf man well past his 70's as he said re word of mouth passed over to the next generation in Cabra. In 1918 or 1919 the 'spanish' flu swept the world as lot of deaf young lads were laid sick in their beds.

A Christian Brother decided to snap roughly eight/nine young lad's necks to prevent the disease spreading further. They were buried in the graveyard with no names at all as they do still exist now. It was confirmed to me by a deceased Christain brother before he passed away. He said that it was 21 deaths alltogether after the spanish flu outbreak.

... and the strange thing about the Spanish Flu .... healthy young people were more at risk from succumbing that what would a child residing in an industrial school !

The Religious Orders files were generally only accessed by academics (and trusted journalists) writing papers and articles. Some of them date before Independence ... but most of them are 20th. century and from the foundation of the State. Some of course were 'digitally' obtained.

[disability student]

... and the strange thing about the Spanish Flu .... healthy young people were more at risk from succumbing that what would a child residing in an industrial school !

The Religious Orders files were generally only accessed by academics (and trusted journalists) writing papers and articles. Some of them date before Independence ... but most of them are 20th. century and from the foundation of the State. Some of course were 'digitally' obtained.

I heard it first hand from a deceased Christian Brother as he was telling me the Spanish flu story. It was fascinating to hear it and he showed me the unmarked graves where they were buried. I didn't think much of it at that time. The Spanish Flu graves still exists.

The strange thing was that they decided to snap vulnerable young deaf kids's necks to prevent the contagion of the Spanish flu. As a result of the flu and necks snapped, in total was 21 deaths.

[Andrew49]

I notice that Wellcome, now part of Glaxo SmithKiine, is mentioned. If the tests formed part of their clinical trials in order to get a vaccine or medicine accepted by the authorities then those documents or records should still exist. Either in GSK's own archives or in the archives of whichever body was charged with clearing the medicine or vaccine for use by doctors.

It may be that personnel records have disappeared on the Irish side but if there are documents outlining the clinical trials (and there would have to be as a legal requirement even going back decades) then there is s smoking gun somewhere in that pharma company's archives.

It should be possible for survivors to write to GSK, giving dates and asking for confirmation of any clinical trials in which the company was involved in Ireland and what papers they have- there would be a record of interaction between the company and the religious institution or at least via a third party.

In one gulag the children were divided into two groups of 100; one group would receive two cubes of treated sugar to consume and the other group would receive injections. This gulag had two dormitories and in one the bedding would be sprayed with a chemical from a red container while the other dormitory was sprayed with a chemical from a green container. I remember that both dormitories were full of dead flies etc., after the spraying. The spraying might have been DDT but I've never heard of it been in liquid form. I do know that DDT was regularly used in the dormitories in powder form and in containers marked DDT - so I don't believe that these chemicals that were sprayed were DDT!

Anyway I wouldn't trust the results of any drug trials from those places as the children were generally sickly to begin with, and the living conditions in them were - to quote a contemporary and secret Government report - 'a social malaise'

[Andrew49]

I heard it first hand from a deceased Christian Brother as he was telling me the Spanish flu story. It was fascinating to hear it and he showed me the unmarked graves where they were buried. I didn't think much of it at that time. The Spanish Flu graves still exists.

The strange thing was that they decided to snap vulnerable young deaf kids's necks to prevent the contagion of the Spanish flu. As a result of the flu and necks snapped, in total was 21 deaths.

I would believe him. There are many unexplained happenings in those places ... even the Kennedy Report from 1970 identified that 238 children absconded from these hell-holes over a period of 19 years and were never traced or found at all. My understanding is that these 238 children died under suspicious circumstances .... it would be quite easy to dispose of children's bodies as most of the gulags already had mass graves either on the grounds or in out of the way parts of cemeteries in their locality.

Children who died in Letterfrack were/are buried in a bog ... and don't bogs preserve bodies.

[C. Flower]

Terrible. But now, we let them die on the streets. Do you have any hopes for the "Childrens' Czar" ? I note that the Minister says there is no one in Ireland who would be fit to do that job.

[Andrew49]

Irish Independent, 1 November 1924.

The Fantasy surrounding Industrial Schools
'The pity is that we were not all brought up in industrial schools.' This was the plaintive comment of a spectator at a physical drill display by the boys at an Irish industrial school recently. Few braches of education have been revolutionised to such an extent as that branch which deals with the corrective and industrial education for boys who, through lack of parental control, have made themselves answerable to the state/law for minor transgressions. There is no branch of education in which Irishmen have been more successful as reformers and pioneers, both at home and abroad.

Irish Reformers Abroad
Irish teachers take a large part in the industrial education of the boys of Great Britain. The largest industrial school for boys in England is under Irish control and is manned almost exclusively by Irishmen - members of a well-known teaching order, with many educational efforts to their credit. This institutions has led the way in a reformation which is a constant source of wonder to educationalists and of perplexity to the British home office. Even the Home Office - conservaitve as all Government Departments of all countries are - has been won over to the side of reform. The atmosphere of the industrial school conducted by these Irish religious is no longer the atmosphere of the prison or the penitentiary...the atmosphere rather of the great public schools, chastened and subdued, perhaps, by religious influence.

Unabused Freedom
Within the school there is the amplest freedom. Hundreds of boys ply their different trades in the workshops and sing while they work. 'Forced labour' is unknown. Each boy has his task and there are no drones at all. The gates and door stand invitingly open throughout the day. There are no truants. On certain evenings, the boys go off in batches to the city, to inspect the shop windows and patronise a picture house, if finances permit. No teacher accompanies them. They are all told to report back at a certain hour and when the roll is called there are no absentees. At Christmas and Easter those boys whose parents are living are given a fortnight's holiday and a railway pass home. They travel, in some cases, hundreds of miles, but they all turn up smiling on the day and at the hour fixed for their return.
Quite recently, the principal of the establishment decided to abolish the school uniform. Three hundred boys, thereafter, set out on a fortnight's holiday, attired in ordinary school-boys garb/ The unbelievers prophesised that 25% of the holiday makers would return. When roll was called after vacation, only one boy failed to respond. He turned up, with apologies, twelve hour later and was ostracised by his colleagues for several weeks. Such is the Draconian Code amongst industrial school boys for those who offend against the obligations of honour.

The Secret
Visitors to the institution in question have marvelled at the esprit de corps and the spirit of manly independence which they found among the boys. The secret of the scheme would seem to be found in the word 'trust'. The teachers trust the boys absolutely and the majority of the boys are responsive. The minority who might feel tempted to abuse the confidence reposed in them, are restrained by the force of school opinion, a factor of wonderful potency when well-organised. It is peculiarly fitting that this great experiment is on the lines advocated by Padraic Pearse should have been made by Irish teachers and that it should have been successful in such unpromising circumstances gives ground for hope of wide extension in other domains. 'Irish teachers as reformers',

- - - - - - - - - -

I think it's Artane Industrial School

[disability student]

Terrible. But now, we let them die on the streets. Do you have any hopes for the "Childrens' Czar" ? I note that the Minister says there is no one in Ireland who would be fit to do that job.

That useless minister shouldn't be sitting in his office as he failed them. He was hapless as he's very slow in implementing it.

One thing is clear that Child protection should NOT be in the hands of HSE as they spent so much time on hospitals. Also they have no expertise in that area as regards to Chiild protection. Alan Shatter was correct on this as RTE complied with FF request that Shatter not in the same room as the HSE director in the prime time. Shatter was placed in the dail at RTE request.

It's a total shambles and also total gross failure on part of the HSE. Remember bucks stop with Mary Harney minister for health and CHILDREN. She has to go- simple as that.

[Lapsedmethodist]

papers???

I have the testimonies from others who are prepared to testify if necessary. This hasn't been on the public domain until now. The problem is the DPP as they have turned down some cases by citing not enough evidence. However that was hogwash because they are on the side of the government not ourselves/the abused/survivors et al.

Remember the deal (M Wood's Indemnity deal) they (DPP/Govt) made with the religious orders so they have to keep their bargain with them by naming no names etc.

Sorry... files.

[disability student]

Sorry... files.

These files had disappeared without trace *sigh*.

Re Andrew, he posted it earlier re missing files 99% of it were gone especially medical records when Laffoy/Ryan commission investigated.

School records were intact in some ways as i was able to retrieve it.

[Andrew49]

These files had disappeared without trace *sigh*.

Re Andrew, he posted it earlier re missing files 99% of it were gone especially medical records when Laffoy/Ryan commission investigated.

School records were intact in some ways as i was able to retrieve it.

All I got 'officially' from the Religious Orders concerned with my 'care' and the Dept. of Education were the dates of entry, transfer and release. And even then they were false. While out on licence when I was 14 (almost 15) I had to attend a local technical college for one full school year (Sept - end of May) and one week of second year. I was sent back to the Industrial School just before I was 16 years old. The official files of the industrial school and the Dept. of Education stated that I had been out on licence for 3 months only .... yet the same Department had records showing I was attending a technical college for one full school year !! Their OWN official records were contradicting each other!

The Industrial School/Dept. of Education couldn't find any medical records relating to me - despite two serious injuries to me caused by assaults by members of the religious orders. And one of the injuries involved a huge amount of plastic surgery ..... yet no records .... and the religious order THEN and NOW manages hospitals ..... for children !!

The only education records relating to me are from my attendance at the technical college - no education records were retrieved from the religious orders. Not that they would reveal anything as education was way down the list of priorities, especially when you have orders for 100 suits, 100 shirts, 300 pairs of sock, 100 pairs of shoes to fulfill every month - then there's the 80 acres of produce ... potatoes, turnips, sugar beet .... that have to be attended to. Not to mention the 70 dairy cattle !

I can make you a suit and a pair of shoes, provide you with a meal in a matter of hours but there's not a hope in hell of me telling you what subjects I studied while a ward of the state!

[disability student]

All I got 'officially' from the Religious Orders concerned with my 'care' and the Dept. of Education were the dates of entry, transfer and release. And even then they were false. While out on licence when I was 14 (almost 15) I had to attend a local technical college for one full school year (Sept - end of May) and one week of second year. I was sent back to the Industrial School just before I was 16 years old. The official files of the industrial school and the Dept. of Education stated that I had been out on licence for 3 months only .... yet the same Department had records showing I was attending a technical college for one full school year !! Their OWN official records were contradicting each other!

It was shocking to read this re official records doesn't tally with each other. The nuns are worse at times and go to great lengths to cover up or deny deny even they did it at the Redress board hearing of a friend of mine.

I think they were interested in money called capitation grant for each one as they make money out of it.

The Industrial School/Dept. of Education couldn't find any medical records relating to me - despite two serious injuries to me caused by assaults by members of the religious orders. And one of the injuries involved a huge amount of plastic surgery ..... yet no records .... and the religious order THEN and NOW manages hospitals ..... for children !!

The only education records relating to me are from my attendance at the technical college - no education records were retrieved from the religious orders. Not that they would reveal anything as education was way down the list of priorities, especially when you have orders for 100 suits, 100 shirts, 300 pairs of sock, 100 pairs of shoes to fulfill every month - then there's the 80 acres of produce ... potatoes, turnips, sugar beet .... that have to be attended to. Not to mention the 70 dairy cattle !

I was able to retrieve most of the attendence records (sparsely doucmented), teacher's reports,psych reports along with tests such as I Q tests etc but not all of it. Strangely medical records were nowhere to be seen as they said they don't have it at all. So i went to the Mater hospital where i was given a black eye by a bully and got it. No medical records from the medical clinic in our alma mater school which was very very weird or downright very dodgy. It reminded me of the Kgb.


I can make you a suit and a pair of shoes, provide you with a meal in a matter of hours but there's not a hope in hell of me telling you what subjects I studied while a ward of the state!

You must endured a hard life re making suits,meals etc. Not surprising because we were given little food which was poor while at the same time, the religious orders feasted on their well cooked food with wine & best bread they can get etc.

[Andrew49]

You must endured a hard life re making suits,meals etc. Not surprising because we were given little food which was poor while at the same time, the religious orders feasted on their well cooked food with wine & best bread they can get etc.

I wasn't unique in any way - very few children didn't suffer.

From testimony at the Commission:

A religious order admitted that boys at two of its industrial schools were left cold and hungry while priests dined in comfort. The clerics further admitted boys in their care were brutally beaten. The commission was told that the boys lived in an atmosphere of constant fear and anxiety, and were punished excessively, sometimes brutally, they admitted that its boys who were from unstable or troubled backgrounds went from

"the frying pan into the fire".

Lawyers for abuse victims described the schools as Dickensian-style workhouses and paupers' prisons. The boys were beaten for a wide range of reasons - including bedwetting - and that the punishment meted out were at times

"spontaneous", "excessive" and "brutual".

Such punishments or the fear of punishment kept the boys constantly on edge,

Testimony: I accept that the boys experienced enormous anxiety and fear. Certainly there was a sense in most of the institutional schools that punishment could come at any time, and despite the pervasive fear, anxiety and sex abuse that was rife in the institutions at the time, boys who ran away were "dealt with severely".

Bizarrely While he agreed there were beatings he denied there was

"a culture of brutality"

in the schools. He said that due to financial and other constraints, the institutions' goals of providing care, education and control to the children invariably amounted to simply exerting control over them.

"I would accept that care and education wasn't the priority it was at a later time. The first priority was control."

He also admitted that the food was both inadequate in quantity and quality even though priests and administrators at the institutions dined well. He added that heating at the schools was also insufficient leaving the boys cold and hungry most of the time.

"It was so much better for the people who lived and worked there,"

[disability student]

[QUOTE=Andrew49;38333]I wasn't unique in any way - very few children didn't suffer.

Yeah very true as not many of them escaped the harsh realities of institutional life in schools.

Yes very common re bedwetting,constant fear (leads to insommia),corporal punishments which continued right up early 90's.

But what was remarkable that just a few of them ended up in mental hospitals as the most of us survived intact in some way along with psychological scar wounds. Looking back now, i don't think most ordinary folks wouldn't survive the harsh regime imposed by the religious orders just like any the big brother sideshow on TV.

What is important that we got it over the hurdle and move on.

[C. Flower]

Very well done.