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Thread: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

  1. #121
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerd Muller View Post
    Still, I do wonder why people might put the national question ahead of the economic one? I think Farage is a classic example of this. However, it seems to me a UI is an important concept for many Irish people without being especially logical. Fumble in a greasy till, etc.
    As far as tangible benefits go. It reminds me of when the accession countries were trying to get into the EU. Although they were poorer countries their joining created a bigger internal market for the EU.

    In the same way a UI would see the creation of a larger internal market on the Island for Irish Businesses to serve.

    Also in the context of a very Hard Brexiting a UI would be sourcing less goods through UK suppliers and on the Irish end we'd end up being more self reliant as regards sourcing imports. Not a bad state of affairs.

  2. #122
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcc View Post
    Yep and for those too young to remember, Senses Working Overtime and Dear God were also XTC songs.

    Regards...jmcc
    Ah ok. I didn't pick up on that initially, I must admit.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    It's coming a revisionist point of view though, that the Orange State was not so bad and should have been preserved. Read what he actually said about the Orange State on the previous page.

    We are not seriously suggesting that was any better than the first 40 years of Independence just because the ROI was poorer and the Church dominated social life? That one form of bigotry and civil oppression was much better than another? Were Catholics somehow in NI better off than Protestants in the ROI? I doubt that much anyways.

    He seems to regret the way NI is right now, if I understand right, as any defender of the Orange State would not exactly support advances for Irish citizens in the North, now would they? And he is also stating that somehow the Republic today is the same as the Republic 60 years ago, which is pure horseshite.
    All fair points, Maggot can speak for himself.

    In this recent interview, the English Roman Catholic Tory Anne Widdecombe, in the course of critiquing the 'Me Too' movement, reminds us that in the UK when she was a young woman, it was by no means unusual to see job adverts which advertised different wages dependent on whether the applicant was male or female, and not only that it was lawful in Britain for a finance company to refuse to lend money to women:

    Last edited by pluralist; 27-09-2018 at 02:17 AM.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    All fair points, Maggot can speak for himself.
    Why should I waste my time fighting Apjp's ranks of straw men?

    People in NI were better off in terms of civil liberties and standards of living than people in the 26 (I use 26 because it is easier than writing Free State/Republic of Ireland every time)

    Of course there was discrimination - and as people as diverse and Bernadette Devlin and Eamonn McCann have pointed out, nationalists discriminated against Unionists. In fact the evidence is that the worst discrimination was from nationalist councils. And post GFA it was Nationalists caught discriminating in Government (step forward Conor Murphy, Ruane and Gildernew)

    OMOV - considerably more protestants were enfranchised than Catholics.

    Housing and Jobs : the research of Professor Richard Rose showed

    “there had been no systematic overall discrimination against Roman Catholics in public housing and jobs. What was revealed was that, in regard to housing, 40.86 per cent of all Roman Catholic households were in public authority housing as opposed to 32.6 per cent of Protestant households, and that in areas of central Belfast prior to the disorders both Roman Catholic and Protestant areas were ‘grossly deficient in the provision of standard [housing] amenities.’ If there was discrimination in housing, the great bias appeared to favour Roman Catholics in Nationalist-controlled Local Authorities.”
    In a supposedly Orange State ghow come Newry was allowed to treat Unionist community residents so badly?

    Even regarding how they handled the terrorists - de Valera was far more savage against the IRA in the 1940s than the so called Orange State - with more executions and hunger strike deaths. In fact doesn't it seem strange that Joe Cahill, Pardoned for his part in the murder of a (Catholic) RUC man, was able to work in the Belfast shipyards... where he wrote he was treated fairly by his workmates, even though they knew he was a convicted cop killer?

    Ernest Blythe and Thomas Johnson both wrote that the 26 mishandled partition and did nobody any favours by encouraging the sulky negative behaviour of the Northern nationalists.

    It is a bit much to complain of exclusion after choosing to boycott the state - and Stephen Gwynn made a telling point-
    Stephen Gwynn pointed out : ‘Sinn Féin honeycombed the British service in Ireland with persons who thought it honest to conspire actively against the government which paid them. One cannot expect Sir James Craig and his ministers to have forgotten that nor blame them for acting on the memory.’

    As the figures on emigration, coercive confinement and abuse show, the 26 was a hellish place compared to NI.
    Last edited by maggot; 26-09-2018 at 06:01 PM.

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    It's coming a revisionist point of view though, that the Orange State was not so bad and should have been preserved. Read what he actually said about the Orange State on the previous page.

    We are not seriously suggesting that was any better than the first 40 years of Independence just because the ROI was poorer and the Church dominated social life? That one form of bigotry and civil oppression was much better than another? Were Catholics somehow in NI better off than Protestants in the ROI? I doubt that much anyways.

    He seems to regret the way NI is right now, if I understand right, as any defender of the Orange State would not exactly support advances for Irish citizens in the North, now would they? And he is also stating that somehow the Republic today is the same as the Republic 60 years ago, which is pure horseshite.
    The Orange quasi-state still has a ban on abortion and still has grammar schools does it not ? Connolly's 'carnival of reaction' all the way. The division of Ireland along an artificial religious divide was surely a British project and not an Irish one.

    We are now left with a situation in which a reactionary turn of freakishness in England and parts of Wales can threaten to completely screw things up here.

    A United Ireland is called for even if only to defend ourselves from the forthcoming Brexit carve up.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The division of Ireland along an artificial religious divide was surely a British project and not an Irish one.
    That is buck passing.

    Blaming England, Blythe argued, was a form of escapism which absolved southern politicians from reuniting Ireland by their own creative efforts:

    There are indications that many of those who blame England for the creation of the Border have a subconscious belief that by doing so they can place on England all responsibility for getting rid of the Border. To hear many of them talk it might be imagined that instead of singing with Thomas Davis 'And righteous men will make our land a Nation once again' they want us to chant 'And English men will make our land a Nation once again.'45

    This was a brave point to make in the early 1950s. To some it seemed heretical.
    Page 68

    The blame for partition lay more on Ireland's shoulders than on those of the traditional enemy: ‘There would be twenty times more truth in describing Partition', Blythe wrote, 'as Ireland's crime against herself than in describing it, according to our propagandist formula, as England's crime against Ireland.'59 Even after over thirty years had elapsed, no serious effort had been made by southern politicians fundamentally to reassess the situation. Exploitation of partition for party purposes at home and the circulation of misleading propaganda in Northern Ireland and abroad would not, in the face of undiminished opposition from the northern majority, bring about, either directly or indirectly, any useful change.60 The campaign led into a cul-de-sac by prolonging unionist solidarity on politico-religious lines. As John Bowman has put it, 'such was the nature of Partition that frontal pressure tended only to reinforce it'.61 In Blythe's mind, the Anti-Partition Campaign could only increase the gap between north and south. Instead of the unity it sought, the campaign inhibited the development of ‘normal non-segregative political parties' in Northern Ireland and opened the vista of a 'six county dominion' - the title of Blythe's formative memorandum.62
    Pages 69-70

    With nothing but religion at stake, northern Protestants, unlike their ancestors in 1798, could no longer identify even slightly with the nationalist side. It was therefore natural that they should almost unanimously prefer a Protestant parliament at Westminster: ‘Partition arose and stands because of the obstinate resolve of the Northern majority not to be put under a Catholic Parliament and Government.’114 Interestingly, Barrington also pinpointed O'Connell and the identification of nationalism with Catholicism as the fundamental historical reason for partition.115
    Page 76

    'Ireland in His Heart North and South': The Contribution of Ernest Blythe to the Partition Question, Daithí Ó Corráin, Irish Historical Studies, Vol. 35, No. 137 (May, 2006), pp. 61-80 Irish Historical Studies Publications URL:http://www.jstor.org/stable/20547410

    A superb article, well worth searching out

    And the question is - were the Northern protestant's fears justified? Especially considering the popularity of the writings of D.P. Moran in his paper, the Leader - where he argued that Protestants could never be truly Irish, regardless of acts of apostasy or cultural repudiation; they could never fully participate in the life of the nation, no matter how they might learn to speak or write Irish; and they would always be adjudged alien by so-called "thoroughgoing Irish" considerations.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    "There was black propaganda in Northern Ireland, I looked into it since and I was told that the thing had ended." - Merlyn Rees (Welsh-born Labour party Member of Parliament from 1963 until 1992, who served as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1974–76) and Home Secretary (1976–79))

    "Do you believe that?" - questioner

    "Yes" - Rees


    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by maggot View Post
    That is buck passing.



    Page 68



    Pages 69-70



    Page 76

    'Ireland in His Heart North and South': The Contribution of Ernest Blythe to the Partition Question, Daithí Ó Corráin, Irish Historical Studies, Vol. 35, No. 137 (May, 2006), pp. 61-80 Irish Historical Studies Publications URL:http://www.jstor.org/stable/20547410

    A superb article, well worth searching out

    And the question is - were the Northern protestant's fears justified? Especially considering the popularity of the writings of D.P. Moran in his paper, the Leader - where he argued that Protestants could never be truly Irish, regardless of acts of apostasy or cultural repudiation; they could never fully participate in the life of the nation, no matter how they might learn to speak or write Irish; and they would always be adjudged alien by so-called "thoroughgoing Irish" considerations.
    Opinions and arseholes, everyone has them.

    Now crumbs you do know that Ernest Blythe was a nutcase who drifted from fighting with Republicans to rid Ireland of British Rule and on then to being deeply involved in the setting up of Ireland's only ever full on Fascist party.

    It would be even easier to find volumes of opinion excoriating the Northern State. So what? They're all just opinions.

  9. #129
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    Opinions and arseholes, everyone has them.

    Now crumbs you do know that Ernest Blythe was a nutcase who drifted from fighting with Republicans to rid Ireland of British Rule and on then to being deeply involved in the setting up of Ireland's only ever full on Fascist party.

    Untrue.

  10. #130
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by maggot View Post
    Untrue.
    What's untrue?

  11. #131
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    What's untrue?
    We are going wayyy off topic, but Blythe wasn't a nut case and he wasn't deeply involved etc .... Presumably Thomas Johnson, who also disgreed with how the 26 behaved towards NI, was also a nut case in your book ...

    D.P. Moran and Martin Corry were nutcases, whose ravings validated Unionist suspicions. Corry after all called in 1938, during a debate in the Dáil, for the murdering of everybody in NI. Was he suspended from parliament or from his party? Not at all - his comments were merely ruled as being, in modern parlance, off-topic.

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Specific Tangible Benefits to RoI of a UI

    Quote Originally Posted by maggot View Post
    We are going wayyy off topic, but Blythe wasn't a nut case and he wasn't deeply involved etc .... Presumably Thomas Johnson, who also disgreed with how the 26 behaved towards NI, was also a nut case in your book ...

    D.P. Moran and Martin Corry were nutcases, whose ravings validated Unionist suspicions. Corry after all called in 1938, during a debate in the Dáil, for the murdering of everybody in NI. Was he suspended from parliament or from his party? Not at all - his comments were merely ruled as being, in modern parlance, off-topic.
    One man's nutcase is another man's hero.

    Mr Corry's remarks, did he really want everyone ( including northern nationalists ) in NI killed?

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