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Thread: Putin and Russia

  1. #1
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    Default Putin and Russia

    So which is it. Is he a super crook worth up to 200 billion or as he claims himself just an upper middle class type ?
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politic...ice=responsive

    I would guess he's in the Charlee Haughey league anyhow but maybe not quite as bad as his predecessor Yeltsin?. At best he's a Fianna Failer Russian style though sometimes he looks like a Bush senior as well

    Again Yeltsin and cronies can probably be blamed for destroying most of the Soviet version of welfare state. Putin has done little or nothing to reverse that (RT shows he is great at propaganda though) It is hard to get info with the Guardian having claimed
    'Unemployment benefits are fairly meagre in Russia, being offered for a maximum of 12 months and providing payment from 850 roubles (£8.50) per month up to a maximum of 4,900 roubles (about £50) per month. The exact amount a person receives depends on their previous work experience and the reason they are out of work. These benefits do not even begin to cover basic living costs: the minimum cost of living in Russia in 2014, as set by the government itself, was 8,283 roubles per month.). This is seen as the absolute minimum required to fulfil basic food and medical needs, although in major cities like Moscow the real figure is surely much higher. The legal minimum wage was a tiny 5,554 roubles, which rose by 7.4% to 5,965 roubles on 1 January this year. ... '
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...abled-benefits

    And this wooly article doesnt contradict that . The Russian Welfare state is mostly a paper one and Putin-poligists either dont understand or dont care http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article26666

    Under Putin there have even been Tory style cuts (on an already pathetic to non existant system) https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-lose-benefits
    All way too depressing to take in , so let's all watch Putins fantasy channel RT and pretend he's a relative good guy

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by GregTimo View Post
    So which is it. Is he a super crook worth up to 200 billion or as he claims himself just an upper middle class type ?
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politic...ice=responsive

    I would guess he's in the Charlee Haughey league anyhow but maybe not quite as bad as his predecessor Yeltsin?. At best he's a Fianna Failer Russian style though sometimes he looks like a Bush senior as well

    Again Yeltsin and cronies can probably be blamed for destroying most of the Soviet version of welfare state. Putin has done little or nothing to reverse that (RT shows he is great at propaganda though) It is hard to get info with the Guardian having claimed
    'Unemployment benefits are fairly meagre in Russia, being offered for a maximum of 12 months and providing payment from 850 roubles (£8.50) per month up to a maximum of 4,900 roubles (about £50) per month. The exact amount a person receives depends on their previous work experience and the reason they are out of work. These benefits do not even begin to cover basic living costs: the minimum cost of living in Russia in 2014, as set by the government itself, was 8,283 roubles per month.). This is seen as the absolute minimum required to fulfil basic food and medical needs, although in major cities like Moscow the real figure is surely much higher. The legal minimum wage was a tiny 5,554 roubles, which rose by 7.4% to 5,965 roubles on 1 January this year. ... '
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...abled-benefits

    And this wooly article doesnt contradict that . The Russian Welfare state is mostly a paper one and Putin-poligists either dont understand or dont care http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article26666

    Under Putin there have even been Tory style cuts (on an already pathetic to non existant system) https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-lose-benefits
    All way too depressing to take in , so let's all watch Putins fantasy channel RT and pretend he's a relative good guy
    Who is apologising for Putin ?

    The Soviet Union was destroyed some time ago. Putin is a populist - I agree with your FF reference to some extent - resting on relations with the local oligarchy and on gestures towards supposedly controlling the oligarchy, and increasingly on asserting some military power in the region.

    If he is a "relative good guy" - relative to whom ? Trump ? Possibly so...
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    He is a lot more popular among ordinary Russians than Yeltsin.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    He is a lot more popular among ordinary Russians than Yeltsin.


    Putin has far more control over the Media and the ballot boxes, if wants wants to say he has 90% of the vote, then that's what it will be, there is a mere veneer of democracy in Russia.

    Having spent a few years commuting to Russia IMO his wealth would be around the 200bn dollar mark, most of his wealth is hidden by proxy companies in the oil and gas business in Russia, several are quoted companies.

    Putin made a lot of money from disintegrating/destroying Khordokovsky/Yukos and every other Oligarch pay their dues to him without question, the alternative is not nice.

    His wealth and the other oligarchs is effectively stolen from the Russian people, Mugabe would not be at the races with Putin, Assad and his family will be dropping a few billion off to Putin personally somewhere.

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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley 2 View Post
    Putin has far more control over the Media and the ballot boxes, if wants wants to say he has 90% of the vote, then that's what it will be, there is a mere veneer of democracy in Russia.

    Having spent a few years commuting to Russia IMO his wealth would be around the 200bn dollar mark, most of his wealth is hidden by proxy companies in the oil and gas business in Russia, several are quoted companies.

    Putin made a lot of money from disintegrating/destroying Khordokovsky/Yukos and every other Oligarch pay their dues to him without question, the alternative is not nice.

    His wealth and the other oligarchs is effectively stolen from the Russian people, Mugabe would not be at the races with Putin, Assad and his family will be dropping a few billion off to Putin personally somewhere.
    Interesting. But in what way do you think elections are fixed ? It does seem that Putin has been popular and the much publicised protests were really pretty small, not much more than 20,000 so far as I recall ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Over the period 2000 to 2016 Irish per capita GDP went from $26K to $61K.


    https://www.google.com/search?q=iris...hrome&ie=UTF-8


    Over the same period under Putin Russian per capita GDP went from $6K to $11K, which takes it to about where it was in 1990.


    https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-per-capita
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Interesting. But in what way do you think elections are fixed ? It does seem that Putin has been popular and the much publicised protests were really pretty small, not much more than 20,000 so far as I recall ?

    Totally fixed, don't know why they pretend to even count votes, it is a pure sham, protests are minute as anyone prominent ends up dead just like journalists who do not tow his line.

    Russians like strong macho leaders and Putin fits the bill perfectly, the people's Tsar.

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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Those who now bloviate moralistically about Russian wickedness would be wise to listen (it’s still available) to an amazing BBC Radio 4 programme on MI6’s secret 1950s slush fund, worth nearly £40 million in today’s money, totally unaccountable and used for propaganda and, quite possibly, assassinations.

    This was the era when we and the USA were hiring mobs, newspapers and generals to overthrow the Iranian government (one of those involved ended up as a Tory MP), which is why we’re still unpopular there. Of course, we never do that sort of thing now.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz4zW06jwSO
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    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Interesting. But in what way do you think elections are fixed ? It does seem that Putin has been popular and the much publicised protests were really pretty small, not much more than 20,000 so far as I recall ?
    This is pretty funny.

    Do you think protests in such a country are likely to be publicised much?

    Some Russians I have met in Poland actually think Ukraine isn't a real country. The level of brainwashing is scary. The Russians who are informed have told me pretty incredible but all too believable things. My friend from Samara tells me Putin is using Chechens in his proxy warfare on the border. Brutal people who keep order over there so that the local insurgents don't deviate from the script. I seem to recall a number of local commanders in the border area were replaced at some point. Crimeans I have met have told me the Russian State is confiscating land from the locals in Sevastopol. Buildings, homes, shops, farms, you name it, it's all to become part of the new national development plan for the people's Oliharchy and the local Army base.

    I was never very informed about the Ukraine-Russian border conflict and Crimea but I think it's safe to say what matters certainly won't be broadcasted much and elections in a country based on oligarchy, protectionism and opportunistic landgrabs aren't worth a wank. To be honest any Ukrainian nationalists we might have had reservations about seem pretty tame compared to what the Russian State is prepared to do to enhance its own power.

    Whatever we thought we were arguing about before probably was just the tip of the iceberg.

    Ukraine was derided on here for being an Oligarchic society, but it seems in the Ha'penny place next to Russia.
    Last edited by Apjp; 28-11-2017 at 10:30 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    This is pretty funny.

    Do you think protests in such a country are likely to be publicised much?

    Some Russians I have met in Poland actually think Ukraine isn't a real country. The level of brainwashing is scary. The Russians who are informed have told me pretty incredible but all too believable things. My friend from Samara tells me Putin is using Chechens in his proxy warfare on the border. Brutal people who keep order over there so that the local insurgents don't deviate from the script. I seem to recall a number of local commanders in the border area were replaced at some point. Crimeans I have met have told me the Russian State is confiscating land from the locals in Sevastopol. Buildings, homes, shops, farms, you name it, it's all to become part of the new national development plan for the people's Oliharchy and the local Army base.

    I was never very informed about the Ukraine-Russian border conflict and Crimea but I think it's safe to say what matters certainly won't be broadcasted much and elections in a country based on oligarchy, protectionism and opportunistic landgrabs aren't worth a wank. To be honest any Ukrainian nationalists we might have had reservations about seem pretty tame compared to what the Russian State is prepared to do to enhance its own power.

    Whatever we thought we were arguing about before probably was just the tip of the iceberg.

    Ukraine was derided on here for being an Oligarchic society, but it seems in the Ha'penny place next to Russia.
    I really enjoy your observational posts of your travels. They give a great real insight into what you are seeing in Eastern Europe away from the clinical and sometimes elusive newspaper articles. They remind me of a very good book called In Europe a bit.

    I find that Polish-Ukrainian area very interesting. I think Putin is just the other side of the same coin as the Ukrainian nationalists, and I don't see him as someone who is fighting the good fight against western imperialism. Russia whether under Tsar, Communist or Oligarchy has the common themes of authoritarianism and imperialism.

    Off topic but I see the Polish government has been busy aiding the destruction of the last fragments of Europes primeval forests. A terrible shame.

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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraxinus View Post
    I really enjoy your observational posts of your travels. They give a great real insight into what you are seeing in Eastern Europe away from the clinical and sometimes elusive newspaper articles. They remind me of a very good book called In Europe a bit.

    I find that Polish-Ukrainian area very interesting. I think Putin is just the other side of the same coin as the Ukrainian nationalists, and I don't see him as someone who is fighting the good fight against western imperialism. Russia whether under Tsar, Communist or Oligarchy has the common themes of authoritarianism and imperialism.

    Off topic but I see the Polish government has been busy aiding the destruction of the last fragments of Europes primeval forests. A terrible shame.
    Yeah Poland is facing huge EU fines over that but the material wealth therein and its economic value probably outweighs any few million zlotych of fines.

    I get the impression most Ukrainians are without hope now but the lesser evil is usually your own govt and your own Army. It's my own opinion that Russia has no interest in starting world war three by taking over the whole country when they can just watch the Ukrianian economy tank year after year and gouge the poor people there for gas. Naturally none of the Slavs I meet would think like this. The Ukrainian Army vastly outnumbers the insurgent factions yet they will not move to retake the two Oblasts nor Crimea as Russia has enough of a foothold now to scare the **** out of them.

    3'000 Russian soldiers have also died in what is little more than a geopolitical carve-up to fend off NATO. Hardly worth giving your life for.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Yeah Poland is facing huge EU fines over that but the material wealth therein and its economic value probably outweighs any few million zlotych of fines.

    I get the impression most Ukrainians are without hope now but the lesser evil is usually your own govt and your own Army. It's my own opinion that Russia has no interest in starting world war three by taking over the whole country when they can just watch the Ukrianian economy tank year after year and gouge the poor people there for gas. Naturally none of the Slavs I meet would think like this. The Ukrainian Army vastly outnumbers the insurgent factions yet they will not move to retake the two Oblasts nor Crimea as Russia has enough of a foothold now to scare the **** out of them.

    3'000 Russian soldiers have also died in what is little more than a geopolitical carve-up to fend off NATO. Hardly worth giving your life for.
    Scary that in the course of just a couple of years the Russians alone have taken almost as many casualties as the Six Counties/NI 'Troubles' cost in lives over 30 years - and that's not to mention the Ukrainian civilian and military casualties, which I assume are a multiple of the Russian casualties.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    Well that's settled then........

    THE MOSCOW TIMES: "Putin Announces 2018 Presidential Bid, Surprising No One": "Vladimir Putin on Wednesday announced he is running for the presidency in upcoming elections, seeking a fourth term next year that would extend his rule into 2024. The longtime president is practically guaranteed to win. A September poll by the independent Levada Center put his approval ratings at 83 percent. Next year's elections on March 18 are timed to coincide with the anniversary of Russia's annexation of Crimea from Ukraine - an event which largely consolidated Putin's popularity at home." http://bit.ly/2AWhFmI
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Putin and Russia

    The 83% proudly reported also by RT I see so that's enough to prove to me it isnt true as fake news is their expertise (just like the Daily Mail if cleverer)

    Anyhow this years regional elections were as confusing as you'd expect nearly. The decaying CP-RF finally has competition on the leftside maybe ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...lections,_2017

    A guy who doesnt like Putin (from a proclaimed populist left viewpoint), but who the hell is Navalny ? http://seansrussiablog.org/page/2/

    A depressing documentary alluding to the slow death of old communists since Gorbachev (The welfare state maybe the worse in Europe I wonder how they survive at all . Some have found niche like in the tolerated opposition CP-RF) https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/070797...wounded-souls/

    And a Romanian based academic left site which doesnt like Putin http://www.criticatac.ro/lefteast/ (the parent site now virus infected even though they gave up commenting on Russia)

    All in all media sources concerning Russia are not too good (yet- one can only hope)

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