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Thread: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

  1. #1
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    Default In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    Now i may be getting it wrong but for years I think there has been much ambiguity on the Spanish broad left (Unidos Podemos, coalition of Podemos, United left, Greens and regionalists) and the Catalan version 'En Comu Podem' (and various other acronyms as outlined in the wikis and elsewhere) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En_Com%C3%BA_Podem
    An 'umbrella' coalition of Podem (Catalan Podemos), the old communist descended lefts (ICV and EUA sub coalitions) , Equo (Spanish greens) and Independents like Colau

    En Comu do much better in Spanish parliamentary (app 25%) and local Barcelona elections than in the Catalan regional elections (nearer 10%)
    En Comu Podem are distinct from a specific Catalan nationalist Left CUP which boycotts Spanish parliamentary elections and seems strongest outside Barcelona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Unity_Candidacy as is the more right wing Catalan nationalism as repressed by the long corrupt PDcat and the Blairite like ERC which combined in JxSi is electorally much bigger (towards 40% in regional, less in Spanish parliamentary elections) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Catalonia

    En Comu are caught between the hardline unionist C's which were born in Barcelona (that of PP and the lesser of PSOE) and Catalan nationalism in general
    Looking at Ada Colau the most well known En Comu Podem politican and mayor of Barcelona. Though a former communist now independent it is said but seen as leader of the umbrella En Comu Podem
    Her priority the ousting of Rajoy, she said Sunday
    'This is not a split between Spain and Catalonia, it is a split between the government of Rajoy and Catalonia'
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/stat...01754607292416

    Obviously Colau is restrained by local reality but Madrid Podemos intellectual Monedero is less shy in attacking the right wing Catalan nationalism represented by (CJH scale?) corrupt Pujol as well as attacking Rajoy in equal measure
    http://blogs.publico.es/juan-carlos-...pana-a-ostias/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol

    All in all headwrecking to challenging figuring it out depending on your point of view. Anyhow as an aspiring internationalist I'll take my lead from Colau and friends and not the CUP and certainly not the mainstream Catalan nationalism . The PP's heavy handedness aided by an 'old guard' within PSOE (see Susanna Diaz, Andalusian 'baron') may well swing it to independence by forcing En Comu off a fence they are sitting on edgily, however the Spanish left is long used to it so it may not ? http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...=FBCNETTXT9038
    Last edited by GregTimo; 02-10-2017 at 04:55 PM.

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    And on the rise of the ERC (blairite sounding Catalan Republican Left) from 2014 . Now allied with the conservative former CiU (PD-cat?) which ruled the region for decades, Leader Junqueras expressing admiration for Cameron by sounds

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...wave-1.1984006

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    Catalan 'crisis': En Comu Podem (aka Catalunya Sí que es Pot) voted no in the main to the independence declaration it is reckoned . Sensible, they are a (Unidos Podemos related) coalition representing people from a Spanish migrant worker tradition . Hardline 'unionists' abstained in the secret ballot
    http://www.publico.es/politica/parla...-ausentes.html

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    Thanks for this, Greg Timo. It is head wrecking and I know a little of Catalonia, having done some work in the past in Barcelona. The people I worked with represented just such a range of views and historical allegiances. Very complex.

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    There is now a lively debate within Podemos itself (esp Cataln branch Podem http://www.publico.es/politica/cce-d...inscritos.html ) and the wider broad left Uniods Podemos and the Catalan equiv CatComu/En Comu Podem/'Catalonia Yes we Can' . 3 points of view arise, one wants to disassociate from the Catalan nationalists coming from the old communist left IU but not just them , the anti-capitalist trotskyites have as you'd expect gone too far and supported the nationalists in the main (Andalusia Podemos leader Rodriquez dissented, she is pretty much in Iglesias middle of road camp now i'd say) . The Iglesian led majoritarian faction are still hoping to get a compromise with the nationalists , likely the sensible thing to do , though IU leader Garzon makes obvious points that are hard to ignore (Cs are up all over Spain esp in Catalonia -read Barcelona itself even moreso)
    ' The independence movement should not associate with the left, especially Catalan, because according to Garzón, it introduces a suspicion, "that of how the richest part of a country is the one that wants to emancipate itself". In this line he argues that "the sociological analyzes of Barcelona show that lower-income neighborhoods, as well as the upper classes, are not pro-independence, but the middle classes" and warns about the possibility that popular classes vote for unionist formations.'
    https://www.elconfidencial.com/espan...iones_1466377/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catala...election,_2017
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinio...neral_election

    Meanwhile we are all getting distracted from the issue of high and still rising inequality . And we can be quite sure that Catalan succession will make this worse . This article talks about how 32% of Andalusians (Spains most popolous region) have an income of 4000 euros a year or less http://www.publico.es/sociedad/pobre...rar-vigor.html
    Last edited by GregTimo; 30-10-2017 at 10:39 AM.

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    I'm am confused again at the latest developments . I had thought Podem was less keen on Independence than the non party people around Barcelona 'En Comu' mayor Ada Colau whose main thing had been PAH the Spanish housing movement ( http://adacolau.cat/en ) but Podem were actually more divided it turns out . The old leader Fachin (who resigned Monday) and seemed associated with IA (anti-capitalists)had wanted an alliance with the ERC centrist nationalists and CUP and seemed to fall out with Colau . A Podem plebiscite yesterday backed Iglesias by 72% who wants to stay with En Comu . Colau seems to agree with Iglesias on a federalist strategy , the word plurinationlist used a lot (on the publico site)
    http://www.publico.es/politica/72-mi...-iglesias.html

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    One I missed from last month . Podemos's position (excepting most of the IA?) explained and a relief for me to see Ada Colau and her En Comu in agreement . The journalist Eoghan is the only Irish member of Podemos I know of and was in Dublin last year giving a breifing . Nice guy with a mind of his own https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/10/p...-for-catalonia

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    .....


    On the Events in Catalonia

    Communist Party of Spain (Marxist-Leninist)


    The Rajoy Government has more than fulfilled its threats, setting in motion all its repressive machinery as soon as the Generalitat de Catalunya formalized its call for a referendum for October 1st. As has been announced, there has not been a formal suspension of Catalan autonomy nor the military intervention contemplated by the Monarchical Constitution. But there is no doubt that the Government has stretched, at its convenience, what the Popular Party (PP) understands by “Legality”, imposing a de facto state of emergency and converting the rights formally recognized on paper: This is the Francoist “force of the rule of law,” which is often cited when a political conflict arises. Threatened officials, closed websites, seized publications, assaults, acts and rallies suspended by the police, political material confiscated, more than seven hundred mayors persecuted, hundreds of police transferred to Catalonia to search for “evidence” and suppress citizens, a Constitutional Court acting as a simple arm of the Executive, the Prosecutor’s Office threatening detentions that are not within its jurisdiction. That is the panorama that today envelops Catalonia and all Spain: The threat of a revived fascism that (although it was never truly gone) in the de facto reestablishment of the crime of “illegal propaganda” and which has had its most vivid advocate in an exultant Catalan PP, that dances and whistles of ecstasy the announcement of the seizure of one hundred thousand political posters. Our comrades, the ones suffered prison and torture for what were also crimes under fascist “legality,” know full well what this means. They do not oppose the Government, just the opposite, they cling cynically to the defense of its “legality”: The same “legality” that the Popular Party violates with impunity or interprets at whim as many times as necessary. This is demonstrated by its more than 1,300 proposals; but, above all by the express reform of article 135 of the Constitution, enforcing payment of the national debt; the insertion of Spain into the military structure of NATO (against the outcome of the 1986 referendum); the secret agreements with the US and, now, with Saudi Arabia. Not to mention the social rights included in the monarchical Constitution in order to have it pass as democratic, which are systematically ignored. On the other hand, the Catalan nationalist bourgeoisie, appeals to the solidarity of the peoples of Spain, but knows that without a radical change, a rupture, with the regime of ‘78 which it helped to settle, it is impossible to exercise the right of self-determination. However, throughout those years (the last time being in 2012, when CIU deputies supported the Rajoy’s brutal reforms, including the labour reform) it given support to a regime that in times of crisis has always shown its true reactionary face. Is it any wonder that most workers consider that this a political bet wagered between two bourgeoisies outside of the interests and most deeply felt needs of the people? There is no turning back: After the gag laws, Rajoy’s supporters have found in Catalonia the pretext to give another twist to the process of degradation of democratic rights and the fascistization of the State. If the Government is unable to seek a political solution it is because it does not want to - in order to further oppress the popular classes for it is the executive arm of the interests of the oligarchy — nor is the allowed with the framework of ‘78. On October 1, will lay bare the true nature of the bourgeois state, which in situations of profound crisis gets rid of its democratic garb to appear as the naked instrument of the domination of one class over the rest. It also demonstrates that, as we communists have repeatedly said, that the monarchist regime of ‘78 is irreformable, a barrier to democratic and social rights and a prison for the peoples. For this reason, the referendum on self-determination in Catalonia (more than possible independence) can be a point of rupture that puts in check the monarchical State. It may be so, despite the fact that the rush of some leading separatists — who considered themselves “disconnected” from Spain even before the referendum - give the whole process certain comic opera tone; irrespective of the outcome of the vote, if there is a positive result; and it may be so because it has managed to revitalize the broad and dynamic popular movement that gave it its drive in the first place. Starting from this base, one has to emphasize the lamentable performance of the Spanish “Left,” as always playing the role of his majesty’s loyal opposition. That in a question of principle, as is the right of the self-determination of the peoples, the “leaders” of the “mainstream left” choose to back down, shielding themselves in formalities, is already serious problem; but that they demand a “conditional referendum” under the monarchic regime is unworthy and demeaning. The problem is not technical, but ideological and political: They simply have no alternative program to the ‘78 regime. As was demonstrated in 2014, at a time of popular struggle, when they evaded coming down clearly in favour of the Republic in the midst of the announced abdication of Bourbon king. Now that same lack of response is again evident, when the State clings to a law that is a dead letter to justify its repressive escalation. That an immense majority of Catalans wishes to exercise their legitimate right to self-determination, whether “legal” or not, is undoubtedly the case, as is they will at least try to put it into practice on October 1. It is not the task of revolutionaries, of course, to examine the technical aspects of the matter, just as the fight for democratic rights and against fascism is not exclusively the job of the Catalan people. What we now have to do, therefore, is to apply all our energy to deepen the political weakness of the monarchical State, to advance a rupture with the rot inherited from the Franco regime. This is a task that engages all Spain, and that is concretized in supporting without distinction the right of the Catalans to decide their future; to combat coercion and the infringement of rights; to denounce the manifest incapacity of the State to face the crucial problems of our peoples and our class; and to promote a broad anti-fascist and republican front, which will boost the rupture with the regime based on a general response to the repressive wave of the PP, regardless of the result of the referendum. These are the tasks we call on all people and organizations that consider themselves to be left-wing to jointly develop.

    Communist Party of Spain (Marxist-Leninist). Executive Committee

    Madrid, September 19, 2017
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    .....
    hey Sam..i am curious about your opinion on the Catalonia independence issue ..

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    hey Sam..i am curious about your opinion on the Catalonia independence issue ..
    Last I heard from Sam was the implication that of the hundreds of thousands who protested the declaration of Independence, millions of those were bused in
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    Last I heard from Sam was the implication that of the hundreds of thousands who protested the declaration of Independence, millions of those were bused in
    there is some truth to that

    the fact is that you have 46 million spaniards and only 7 million are Catalan .. as i understand most of the other 40 million were not happy about this divorce and were in fact bused in from everywhere (really easy to set up in our digital age) ... there's also high % of catalans that do not want to be independent from Spain but I think it is a question of how the politicians frame the question...if you have the communists coming forward and supporting Exit from under Madrid sphere then a lot of people will come out against it because they do not subscribe to the commune type of politics rather than believing they could be on their own..

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    In all fairness that sounds very like the Unidos Podemos position before they clarified they are merely for Catalan self determination but will argue for a federal Spain .

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    there is some truth to that

    the fact is that you have 46 million spaniards and only 7 million are Catalan .. as i understand most of the other 40 million were not happy about this divorce and were in fact bused in from everywhere (really easy to set up in our digital age) ... there's also high % of catalans that do not want to be independent from Spain but I think it is a question of how the politicians frame the question...if you have the communists coming forward and supporting Exit from under Madrid sphere then a lot of people will come out against it because they do not subscribe to the commune type of politics rather than believing they could be on their own..
    The complicated nature of what you describe is, I believe, a major reason why most Catalans did not participate in an election about their future. They are content to leave well enough alone.

    This thread is the only place I've seen claims of bussing. I don't doubt it could happen but I've seen no claims of it......
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

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    Default Re: In between 2 right wing nationalisms? Catalonia's En Comu Podem and Spain's Unidos Podemos

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    The complicated nature of what you describe is, I believe, a major reason why most Catalans did not participate in an election about their future. They are content to leave well enough alone.

    This thread is the only place I've seen claims of bussing. I don't doubt it could happen but I've seen no claims of it......
    maybe threads w claims of bussing were only posted in Portuguese?

    people familiar with the history of Iberia-minus-Portugal don't have such a hard time imagining bussing..
    having said that

    of course that most people i engage with are of similar political persuasion and as I happen to believe in "self-determination of all peoples" that feel they are ready to take the helm of their political destiny, that means I am pro-catalan independence as much as I am pro-kurdish, pro-palestinian/pro-israeli, and pro-scotish.

    the catalans I happen to know are pro-independence, they would like to see Catalonia either as a fully independent nation within the EU or as a federal state of a greater Spain, which Zapatero almost accomplished.

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