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Thread: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Sigh, that's democracy, the majority of the electorate vote for enough people who are sad, mad, bad enough to keep the auld craw-thumping going in a nest of vipers.

    High farce.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Is it compulsory for all TD's to be present inside the chamber during prayer?
    The vote is in: Motion for mandatory standing during the Dail prayer and for the 30-second silence was 97 for to 18 against. They recently voted that a quorum is 10, so my reading is that it is compulsory for those present.
    It is so compulsory that they can name, fine or expel any TD who refuses to observe.
    Really.

    Sinn Féin and Min. Zappone abstained, while Mins.McGrath and Halligan voted No.

    They have managed to make a bad situation worse.

    And this is the bunch that will get to vote on the Citizens' Assembly recommendations.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    The vote is in: Motion for mandatory standing during the Dail prayer and for the 30-second silence was 97 for to 18 against. They recently voted that a quorum is 10, so my reading is that it is compulsory for those present.
    It is so compulsory that they can name, fine or expel any TD who refuses to observe.
    Really.

    Sinn Féin and Min. Zappone abstained, while Mins.McGrath and Halligan voted No.

    They have managed to make a bad situation worse.

    And this is the bunch that will get to vote on the Citizens' Assembly recommendations.
    Appalling.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    Recent CSO data show a further decline in those identifying as Christian in the Irish population. People of no religion are, again, the largest religious minority in the Republic, while there are growing numbers in non-christian denominations.

    There are serious consequent issues: the control of education, medicine and charities, the Repeal of the Eighth Amendment


    Now we have a vote this afternoon on a less serious but indicative matter: the Dáil Prayer which runs as follows:

    Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen.


    The above prayer is said at the commencement of each day's business in the Dáil by the Ceann Comhairle, and in the Seanad by the Clerk of the Seanad.


    A motion has been proposed for 30 seconds silence to follow this prayer to accommodate non-believers:

    The new rules say: “All members present shall stand while the prayer is being read, and when it is concluded, members shall remain standing for 30 seconds of silent reflection.”
    It means an excruciating prolongation of embarrassment and possible affront to TDs who cannot, in conscience, join in the prayer. Ruth Coppinger rightly describes the motion as ' Ridiculous'

    It is time the separation of Church and State was completed.
    I'm really appalled.

    WHo proposed this? I don't understand the sequence of events.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Of course, this excludes members who don't want to take part from the chamber for the duration. Can't those who want it have a prayer meeting outside the chamber, or in a quiet corner, before business starts?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Of course, this excludes members who don't want to take part from the chamber for the duration. Can't those who want it have a prayer meeting outside the chamber, or in a quiet corner, before business starts?
    And you also ask ' WHo proposed this? I don't understand the sequence of events.'

    I am bewildered, even flummoxed by this vote.I can't answer your pertinent questions above, as I chose to follow some other issues in this period, such as Jonathan Sugarman, The NMH, Micheline Sheehy Skeffington's wonderful campaign against NUIG, and of course, the Citizens' Assembly
    and the Eighth Amendment issue. Only so much time a girl can give to shenanigans!
    Perhaps I felt a bit complacent, despite signalling it here, and assumed we would see some outcome that jibed with the Ireland of today.

    A big blow to any remaining trust in the Dáil.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    And you also ask ' WHo proposed this? I don't understand the sequence of events.'

    I am bewildered, even flummoxed by this vote.I can't answer your pertinent questions above, as I chose to follow some other issues in this period, such as Jonathan Sugarman, The NMH, Micheline Sheehy Skeffington's wonderful campaign against NUIG, and of course, the Citizens' Assembly
    and the Eighth Amendment issue. Only so much time a girl can give to shenanigans!
    Perhaps I felt a bit complacent, despite signalling it here, and assumed we would see some outcome that jibed with the Ireland of today.

    A big blow to any remaining trust in the Dáil.
    I read that for a moment as "jihadi Ireland".

    Oh dear
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer


  9. #24
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Dev had a phrase for this sort of thing in 1927: "empty formula."

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Appalling.

    You can hardly say that it is against the spirit of Pearse, now can you?

    Please, just for once, do try and be consistent.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    You can hardly say that it is against the spirit of Pearse, now can you?

    Please, just for once, do try and be consistent.
    Honestly, Pearse and this crowd are light years away from each other.

    I don't see Pearse nominating Saudi Arabia for a Womens' Rights role.

    The war he fought was not a religious war, it was anti-Imperialist. Try reading "The Coming Revolution"
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Honestly, Pearse and this crowd are light years away from each other.

    I don't see Pearse nominating Saudi Arabia for a Womens' Rights role.

    The war he fought was not a religious war, it was anti-Imperialist. Try reading "The Coming Revolution"
    Fair enough. It's just I always thought there was a bit of the rosary-bead rattling tendency about some of the 1916 revolutionaries, Dev and arguably Pearse too. Connolly probably not, granted.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    The vote is in: Motion for mandatory standing during the Dail prayer and for the 30-second silence was 97 for to 18 against. They recently voted that a quorum is 10, so my reading is that it is compulsory for those present.
    It is so compulsory that they can name, fine or expel any TD who refuses to observe.
    Really.

    Sinn Féin and Min. Zappone abstained, while Mins.McGrath and Halligan voted No.

    They have managed to make a bad situation worse.

    And this is the bunch that will get to vote on the Citizens' Assembly recommendations.
    Interesting that Sinn Fein abstained while ''God'' is mentioned in the Proclamation of 1916. Any suggestion of a United Ireland met with ''Home rule is Rome rule'' from certain quarters @ that era.

    Previously and since, other rebellions and proclamations have been careful to avoid divisions. The Dail prayer goes somewhat there but only as testament to a divided Christian society.

    Curious to know, of the how many who voted or their party affiliates gather at Newgrange to greet the dawn and pray to ''Christ''?

    Enjoy the silence!
    Last edited by Trow; 06-05-2017 at 01:11 AM.
    Happiness is an inside job.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Church and State: The Dáil prayer

    Judging by the video clip here, the new protocol did not produce 'silent reflection' of the philosophical or spiritual kind. Much grinning, I thought. Only six remained seated in protest.



    "Ceann Comhairle Seán Ó Fearghaíl ignored the protest against the retention of the prayer – which is said in Irish and English – by Solidarity TDs Mick Barry and Ruth Coppinger and by People Before Profit TDs Richard Boyd Barrett, Gino Kenny, Bríd Smith and Independents4Change TD Joan Collins.
    Mr Barry and Ms Coppinger held aloft posters stating “Separate Church and State”."

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/polit...tion-1.3076796



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