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Thread: The Trump Presidency

  1. #751
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    In fairness, it's not a phrase that too many of the other Irish posters here like any more than you or I do.

    -AMH-
    Personally, I think rentamob-type protests do exist. I am not seeing that element as regards the airport protests. Nor did I see it with Occupy. I pretty much agree with your assessment of Occupy. Always had the sense it was grassroots driven.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  2. #752
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    Personally, I think rentamob-type protests do exist. I am not seeing that element as regards the airport protests. Nor did I see it with Occupy. I pretty much agree with your assessment of Occupy. Always had the sense it was grassroots driven.
    They do. But they generally aren't very large, as renting really large crowds can get expensive.

    I recall hearing about some little protests in front of Russian consulates and embassies in America re: Syria, that perhaps were just that-though I would never makes such accusations without evidence, and they could simply have been angry Muslims.

    -AMH-

  3. #753
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraxinus View Post
    The mantra that protesters are only people with nothing better to do and unemployed has been a shame tactic used by the state since the reactionary quisling class took power after the civil war. It has worked a treat in preserving FG and FF hegemony. The same student/unemployed slur has been used on the water protests, shell to sea and virtually any attempt at mobilisation of people since the foundation of the state thanks to the willing pens and voices of the complicit right wing media such as Hook and the Sindo.
    Mass organised protests work. Not piecemeal protests by a handful of people. Can you afford to protest about every little thing? Can ordinary people?

    Regards...jmcc

  4. #754
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    On a side note, Irish illegal aliens in the US (currently there are at least 50k of them approx according to conservative estimates) are always referred to as 'undocumented Irish' or 'unregistered Irish' in the Irish media. An interesting example of 'politically correct' language.

    TM won't have noticed this, as he's more concerned about the godamn wetbacks.
    TM is a horrible ***** and has no regard for consistency nor fairness.

  5. #755
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    few things will cause me as much disgust today as reading CF allusion in this thread to the 'rentamob' mobilization of Americans against the ignoramus executive orders

    i suppose it says more about 'yous' than about 'us' Americans
    Being genuine here on my part-Please, CF with all due respect to her is sometimes brilliant, and sometimes in a world of her own. I would even pay some American politicians on both sides the compliment of being genuine on this. Liberal issues are known as sacrosanct to Americans but CF is an extreme fundamentalist at times, as Pluralist says most of her assertions seem like conspiratorial whataboutery.

    The idea that protests are organised by one lone rich loon every time they happen is crazy to me. In fact if a rich person can mobilise people in a few hours over such an issue, I would suggest a scientific award for social engineering.

    Nobody believes such rubbish. I am sorry CF-you called me out when I was probably wrong-it's pure nonsense. There are no CIA operations to encourage people to march on and protest in Airports.

    RNY although we happily disagree very often please remember not every person believes the same thing on this forum. If you want to collectively attribute anything to Irish people maybe remember they like to take a contrarian line from what other Irish people say and think. Your western Liberalism in my view is a flawed worldview in terms of geopolitics, but not in terms of basic human rights and basic aspects of liberalist sentiment-i.e. goodwill towards the persecuted and downtrodden.

    My main issue is with the extremes of American foreign policy under what seems to be every administration of the last 70 years excepting perhaps Carter, to a lesser degree Kennedy and Roosevelt. I think Americans on all sides oppose this anti-humane eegitry of late-by which I mean the last few days.

    I think Americans should demand a parliamentary democracy if you want my complete view on the matter. It would make immigration bans for example practically impossible, given the wide berth of representation usually found therein.

    George Soros is a piece of sh!t but I doubt he has the power and influence CF ascribes to him in organising protests in the West(maybe in funding others abroad to do so abroad, but not in the West, where he is little more than an economic commentator/geopolitical lobbyist of which there are many others with their own agendas as well-Soros has lost Clinton and so has little influence at present in the DNC or Congress I would think).
    Last edited by Apjp; 31-01-2017 at 01:19 AM.

  6. #756
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    TM is a horrible ***** and has no regard for consistency nor fairness.
    The man is mentally ill! I've seen him eat a plastic tree.

    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  7. #757
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    The man is mentally ill! I've seen him eat a plastic tree.

    Absolutely. Almost as ill as the fella on this forum who hates Germans.

  8. #758
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    But they generally aren't very large, as renting really large crowds can get expensive.
    This is the great and darkly sinister thing about Social Media. It is now only necessary for the nefariously minded to identify key opinion influencers in a network and get them to believe that it is their idea to have a protest. They go off like a bunch of pied pipers and get their friends out on protests. Of course there's probably a cost for keeping track of these opinion influencers but it is probably a lot simpler and more efficient than having an agent provocateur in every little group. And with the ease with which Social Media data can be harvested, this kind of approach could even be targeted on an individual basis with the advertising and "news" stories that the individual sees. To some extent, and moreso than at any time in the past, many people have lost control over what they think.

    Regards...jmcc
    Last edited by jmcc; 31-01-2017 at 01:44 AM.

  9. #759
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcc View Post
    This is the great and darkly sinister thing about Social Media. It is now only necessary for the nefariously minded to identify key opinion influencers in a network and get them to believe that it is their idea to have a protest. They go off like a bunch of pied pipers and get their friends out on protests. Of course there's probably a cost for keeping track of these opinion influencers but it is probably a lot simpler and more efficient than having an agent provocateur in every little group. And with the ease with which Social Media data can be harvested, this kind of approach could even be targeted on an individual basis with the advertising and "news" stories that the individual sees. To some extent, and moreso than at any time in the past, many people have lost control over what they think.

    Regards...jmcc
    Yeah but I do not think for a second protests organised in a matter of hours, even minutes can be ascribed the same worry.

  10. #760
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcc View Post
    Mass organised protests work. Not piecemeal protests by a handful of people. Can you afford to protest about every little thing? Can ordinary people?

    Regards...jmcc
    Which of course leaves the question, what about mass disorganized protests, like the airport protests and Occupy?

    Indeed, the biggest trouble with Occupy is that a regularly employed person could not camp out in a park for a month on end. Occupations by workers of their workplaces are extremely effective, because they stop production, and indeed sometimes the workers can keep on producing there for themselves. Given the social composition of Occupy, there is no way Occupy could have done serious occupations.

    Occupations of public parks, the Occupy method, accomplish nothing in and of themselves.

    -AMH-

  11. #761
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcc View Post
    This is the great and darkly sinister thing about Social Media. It is now only necessary for the nefariously minded to identify key opinion influencers in a network and get them to believe that it is their idea to have a protest. They go off like a bunch of pied pipers and get their friends out on protests. Of course there's probably a cost for keeping track of these opinion influencers but it is probably a lot simpler and more efficient than having an agent provocateur in every little group. And with the ease with which Social Media data can be harvested, this kind of approach could even be targeted on an individual basis with the advertising and "news" stories that the individual sees. To some extent, and moreso than at any time in the past, many people have lost control over what they think.

    Regards...jmcc
    Brainwashing? Despite the Internet, I do not think people are more easily swayed and manipulated than in the past. Indeed given the general increase of education levels worldwide, likely less so.

    "Opinion leaders" are like any other leaders. The secret to leadership is being the first to charge in a direction that others really want to charge in. Then one can pretend that it was really one's own idea. Opinion leaders who come up with opinions that do not as it were fit the mood of the moment stop being opinion leaders.

    -AMH-

  12. #762
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    And the 'protest conspiracy' stuff is crazy tbh.

    No real evidence for that at this stage. Michael Moore is hardly on Soros's paybook is he when he tweets to thousands of people to get out and march? And somehow I doubt Soros owns that many Congressmen across the Eastern US.
    Of course, the relentless repetition by AMH of "plot" and "conspiracy theory" is childish caricature.

    What I wrote on the protests was -

    I'm sure most of them are very genuine and support protests to defend refugees - but there is also a distinct rentamob/Colour Revolutionish feel to some of this - same as with Occupy.

    There is a heave on against Trump. Saying that is not support for Trump. I'm just saying that regime change can happen at home
    There has been a look of Colour Revolution stuff about aspects of "Black Lives Matter". That does not mean that the people out on the streets are not (90% of them) genuine, but there has been Soros backing behind this and it seems to me an agenda to incite more racial division in the US. And it is a matter of fact that Occupy has been financialy supported by Soros, who has a right wing, neo-liberal agenda, of the Maidan type.

    I recommend that you read Ralph Miliband's article on class war which makes the point that in the main it is waged by the ruling class against the rest

    My view is that there is a high level of naivety around as people find it too uncomfortable to confront the reality that "the authorities" are acting in a way hostile to the interests and autonomy of the majority. Also, the mainstream media pretty well have most peoples' brains confused.

    Events are moving very fast in the US. The US ruling class appears to bevery deeply divided. Regime change is routine to them. Trump is himself very dangerous, but some of the establishment people moving against him are just as dangerous. There is no Lone Ranger going to come over the horizon to replace him. People need to build their own organisations , not allow themselves to be astroturfed.

    George Soros is a piece of sh!t but I doubt he has the power and influence CF ascribes to him in organising protests in the West(maybe in funding others abroad to do so abroad, but not in the West, where he is little more than an economic commentator/geopolitical lobbyist of which there are many others with their own agendas as well-Soros has lost Clinton and so has little influence at present in the DNC or Congress I would think).
    apjp - of course I posted links showing that Soros does fund protest groups in the US. So if we are going to use terms like 'delusional' (and I don't think we should) - which one of us has illusions/delusions about Soros ?
    Last edited by C. Flower; 31-01-2017 at 09:53 AM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #763
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Which of course leaves the question, what about mass disorganized protests, like the airport protests and Occupy?

    Indeed, the biggest trouble with Occupy is that a regularly employed person could not camp out in a park for a month on end. Occupations by workers of their workplaces are extremely effective, because they stop production, and indeed sometimes the workers can keep on producing there for themselves. Given the social composition of Occupy, there is no way Occupy could have done serious occupations.

    Occupations of public parks, the Occupy method, accomplish nothing in and of themselves.

    -AMH-
    Correct. And Occupy at the behest of one individual adopted the practice of requring 100% consensus votes before any action. That meant (and I saw it myself first hand) that nothing of significance was ever agreed on, so nothing was ever progressed in terms of organisation.

    It allowed some letting off of steam but was Utopian and a dead end. Very genuine young people were involved. Movements of spontaneous protest need solid support from Trade Unions and left parties. Did that happen with OccupY?
    Last edited by C. Flower; 31-01-2017 at 12:51 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  14. #764
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Which of course leaves the question, what about mass disorganized protests, like the airport protests and Occupy?

    Indeed, the biggest trouble with Occupy is that a regularly employed person could not camp out in a park for a month on end. Occupations by workers of their workplaces are extremely effective, because they stop production, and indeed sometimes the workers can keep on producing there for themselves. Given the social composition of Occupy, there is no way Occupy could have done serious occupations.

    Occupations of public parks, the Occupy method, accomplish nothing in and of themselves.

    -AMH-
    Well, the Marxist perspective is clear to see there, such as it goes with your nickname. I just like to ask you what about those employees (I deliberately don´t use the word "worker" here) working in the Service sector (like shops etc.)? They don´t produce anything in goods, they just serve in various capacities. A walk out for them would be legally risky, if it isn´t for the reason of a strike.

    I won´t stick too long on this thread myself and post on it. The only thing which I like to add to this thread and its topic is, that Trump is already the worst President the electorate of the USA (in regards of their electoral system) elected into the White House. Those who voted for him and who are not among the super rich will soon enough regret it bitterly, like those Brexit bigots who voted for Brexit in order to follow the lies of Farage and Johnson who promised them a better future but will just get the very opposite of it.

    This world is in a real and severe crisis and more populist idiots are getting voted in high positions to make sure that the downfall will be "completed". Fascism has purchased its new clothes and it still attracts those who are easily blinded by its appearance. But not me, I have seen through these people long ago, they are all bullies.

  15. #765
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    Default Re: The Trump Presidency

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcc View Post
    Mass organised protests work. Not piecemeal protests by a handful of people. Can you afford to protest about every little thing? Can ordinary people?

    Regards...jmcc
    Some mass organised protests work. I agree with your assessment that the anti-water charge protests had an effect, and I think increased peoples confidence that it is worth organising and getting stuck in to mass political activity.

    On other occasions, mass protests have just led to demoralisation - the massive protests against war in Iraq are an example. They were one off protests and not accompained by any other action. There has to be organisation behing the protest that is capable of doing more than protest. Strikes, occupations, boycots and so on. The water protestors occupied the ground over the water meters.

    Other mass protests have been manipulated events - the Big Demonstration used by the CIA to provde cover for the coup against Mossadeq. The mass demonstration against the MB in Egypt that was used to usher in a military coup, and many others. Tahrir Square 2011 was part man part beast - the action of millions was beyond the certain control by the establishment, but there were many funded Colour Revolution activists involved and ultimately, because of the absence of any other leadership, they had their way.

    @AMH - I used the term rentamob loosely - of course, one activist may be paid or provided with training, and resources, to activate larger numbers.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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