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Thread: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

  1. #1
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    Default Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Usually not a fan of the Workers Party but this seems to a genuinely good idea, best one I have heard anyway for tacking the housing crisis.



    Read the full document here:

    http://workersparty.ie/wp-content/up...-Housing-7.pdf
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    No thoughts?

    Worth taking another look at what Engels had to say on the matter....

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...sing-question/
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Tbh, I don't agree with it, housing should be a mix of public and private in my view.

    They are basically calling for a 'super-NAMA' unless I read them incorrectly.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    No thoughts?

    Worth taking another look at what Engels had to say on the matter....

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...sing-question/
    Engels, the wealthy factory owner and bon viveur?
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    No thoughts?
    I was going to act the smart ass when I saw your thread. Glad I didn't. Most people can not overcome their ingrained dislike of people or organisations to see the positive in them. I know I find that a hard ask, so fair play to you.

    Haven't got around to reading the full document yet but it seems idealistic and unrealistic from the bit I have read. It would be the best way to organize housing, but it ain't going to happen in Ireland.
    There is much more mixing of social strata in Germany and it works well. Maybe we are too immature but I can't see it working here.

    Will get back to you when I have read the whole document.

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Quote Originally Posted by eamo View Post
    There is much more mixing of social strata in Germany and it works well. Maybe we are too immature but I can't see it working here.
    So far as I'm aware, Germany has rent controls and property markets in general in that country function fine with them, if used judiciously (even Manhattan has rent controlled apartments to this day - not many people know that).

    There is an ingrained hostility towards rent controls in Ireland, and personally I think it's driven by the goombeenocracy. Possibly as you say we are just too immature as a society.

    I remember a conversation with bubble-believing friends around a decade ago and they were horrified by the very idea of a property price register ('shure, why would I want me neighbour knowing what I paid for me house? Dat's mad talk, dat is!').

    Well, we do now have a property price register (one good thing FG have done) and the sky didn't fall in.
    Last edited by pluralist; 10-08-2016 at 11:02 PM.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    So far as I'm aware, Germany has rent controls and property markets in general in that country function fine with them, if used judiciously (even Manhattan has rent controlled apartments to this day - not many people know that).

    There is an ingrained hostility towards rent controls in Ireland, and personally I think it's driven by the goombeenocracy. Possibly as you say we are just too immature as a society.

    I remember a conversation with bubble-believing friends around a decade ago and they were horrified by the very idea of a property price register ('shure, why would I want me neighbour knowing what I paid for me house? Dat's mad talk, dat is!').

    Well, we do now have a property price register (one good thing FG have done) and the sky didn't fall in.
    Yes, they have a form of rent control in Germany, and tenants have security of tenure as long as they don't stop paying rent or piss off their neighbors. Loud music after maybe 7pm would be a big no no in well run apartment blocks. Your neighbors might have young children and most people will be up early so it is only basic consideration. Also the whole block is likely to be owned by one company or, as in one case I came across a sort of housing co-operative.
    I can never understand why, if a system works in one country, we cannot use it as a model for what we should do here. Seems we must fk around making every mistake for ourselves.

    Also for some reason the social mix in housing seems stronger, at least in the little part I know a bit about, it is a very big country with big regional differences. One block that I know has Carpenters (including one of our Sons) other builders, a hospital Doctor, a sound engineer, shopkeeper and business owner and many more. Would you get the same cross section here? I am not sure, but I don't think so.


    Interesting article from the Financial Times from a true "free market" believer who still comes out on the side of rent control:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7e682660-1...#axzz4H3cPR53k

    From article:
    Housing in Germany has not become the cash cow it has in the UK (although that may now be changing, as investors warm to the attractions of an under-owned asset class). For individuals, houses are first and foremost a place to live. They are a consumer good, not a financial asset, which means prices have been a lot less volatile; until recently, German house prices in real terms had barely budged for decades — another reason why historically, Germans have not been falling over themselves to buy houses.

    Goombeenocracy, must remember that one.

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    Tbh, I don't agree with it, housing should be a mix of public and private in my view.

    They are basically calling for a 'super-NAMA' unless I read them incorrectly.
    What they are calling for is a massive build of social housing, something which I think most would accept as necessary. What is different is that they are proposing that 50% of such builds should be made available for rent to people who would not typically be eligible for social housing. This would ensure a good social mix rather than just shoving the most impoverished and marginalized into one area. This would also allow people (like myself) who rent on the private market from often unscrupulous landlords to gain a measure of long term security and protection, for a fair price. This would also act as a form of rent control helping to bring down private rental sector prices.

    The state can build houses for far cheaper mainly because (a) It is not seeking profit and (b) can secure the capital required at lower interest rates than private developers.

    I think it's a great idea, and contrary to what Eamo says I think it is a somewhat realistic prospect as more than likely we will see some movement on building social housing eventually. If it is explained properly I think it can attract widespread support.

    I'd much rather rent at a cheaper price for better quality housing with better security of tenure. I'm sure many others would too.

    Perhaps you could elaborate on your objections. (I'll ignore the snip at Engels)
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Quote Originally Posted by eamo View Post
    I was going to act the smart ass when I saw your thread. Glad I didn't. Most people can not overcome their ingrained dislike of people or organisations to see the positive in them. I know I find that a hard ask, so fair play to you.

    Haven't got around to reading the full document yet but it seems idealistic and unrealistic from the bit I have read. It would be the best way to organize housing, but it ain't going to happen in Ireland.
    There is much more mixing of social strata in Germany and it works well. Maybe we are too immature but I can't see it working here.

    Will get back to you when I have read the whole document.
    What's that they say about a broken clock?

    A good point that is made is that so called "affordable housing" isn't really so. In order to address the housing issue properly we need to as much as possible remove the potential for private individuals to profit from housing. Anything else is papering over the cracks and asking for another bubble. (Which is in fact what the policy seems to be, to re-inflate the bubble)
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    On reflection it is an excellent policy document. Only problem would be the resentment of some tenants who are being rack rented and some mortgage holders being equally screwed. If their anger could be focused on the housing-for-profit system and not on the Solidarity Housing tenants then real change for the better would ensue.

    The policy has proved very popular in Dublin City Council where the Councillors have voted to apply it in the redevelopment of O'Devaney Gardens.

    Councillors last month voted in favour of a motion from Workers’ Party councillor Éilis Ryan requiring all of the 479 planned new homes at the site close to the Phoenix Park, which will replace the dilapidated 1950s complex, to be “public, mixed-income housing”.
    Needless to say the Government appointed stooge is opposing the will of the elected Councillors.

    Dublin City Council’s assistant chief executive Brendan Kenny, who will shortly take over as the council’s head of housing, has written to Councillors to tell them he is “not obliged” to comply with their decision, saying that it conflicted with the Government’s new action plan for housing.
    From the Irish Times article here:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/socia...ject-1.2768489

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    What they are calling for is a massive build of social housing, something which I think most would accept as necessary. What is different is that they are proposing that 50% of such builds should be made available for rent to people who would not typically be eligible for social housing. This would ensure a good social mix rather than just shoving the most impoverished and marginalized into one area. This would also allow people (like myself) who rent on the private market from often unscrupulous landlords to gain a measure of long term security and protection, for a fair price. This would also act as a form of rent control helping to bring down private rental sector prices.

    The state can build houses for far cheaper mainly because (a) It is not seeking profit and (b) can secure the capital required at lower interest rates than private developers.

    I think it's a great idea, and contrary to what Eamo says I think it is a somewhat realistic prospect as more than likely we will see some movement on building social housing eventually. If it is explained properly I think it can attract widespread support.

    I'd much rather rent at a cheaper price for better quality housing with better security of tenure. I'm sure many others would too.

    Perhaps you could elaborate on your objections. (I'll ignore the snip at Engels)
    It is the other side of the coin to the system that was introduced in the 2000s of allocating a percentage of all private developments for "social and affordable" use. That system was adulterated by allowing developers to give cash instead of houses. Of course, it was one of the factors that pushed up the cost of houses sold on the open market.

    Fine Gael is intent on destroying what is left of social housing in Ireland, by selling off stock and by making local authorities and housing associations use existing stock to leverage new construction by developers.

    They have no interest in building any publicly owned and constructed social housing.

    I'm entirely in favour of setting out alternative proposals to the status quo in detail. They are only unrealistic in that the people in power currently will not introduce them.

    Fine Gael's proposals are unrealistic in that they cannot supply adequate housing for the people who need it. Fine Gael lives in a dangerous lala land in which the private sector will build houses for people on low incomes (Engels demonstrated in The Housing Question how that never works) and in which there will not be a Brexit not a collapse of FDI when Ireland ceases to be a tax haven.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    We now have up to 60% increases (in nominal terms) in rentals since 2011, and yet one of the functions of NAMA was that it was supposed to bring more properties onto the market?

    Something doesn't add up here - even allowing for the fact that, as CF says, "Fine Gael is intent on destroying what is left of social housing in Ireland".

    Is the property market in Ireland failing because it's being specifically designed to fail?
    Last edited by pluralist; 31-08-2016 at 09:56 PM.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    We now have up to 60% increases (in nominal terms) in rentals since 2011, and yet one of the functions of NAMA was that it was supposed to bring more properties onto the market?

    Something doesn't add up here - even allowing for the fact that, as CF says, "Fine Gael is intent on destroying what is left of social housing in Ireland".

    Is the property market in Ireland failing because it's being specifically designed to fail?
    There is no functioning market.

    Prices are being artificially shored up by the banks, who could not cope with real(de) valuations of the property assets they rely on.

    With complicity of the Government, who could not cope with a wave of Gardai, teachers and nurses being thrown out onto the street.

    NAMA is disposing in bulk of residential rental properties, to large US funds who pay no tax. This again is FG policy. There is no great incentive for these funds to make sure the properties are occupied, as they are tradeable assets more easily sold on when empty.

    Very little is being built. Hard to see why developers are not building-to-let, but quite possibly the banks are restricting lending in order to keep the shortage intact, and to keep paper values high.

    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    So why are we co-operating with this farrago?

    The one thing they fear is a mass campaign of civil disobedience.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

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    Default Re: Solidarity Housing Proprosal

    From WP YouTube channel:


    .


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