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Thread: Brexit.

  1. #1246
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    i don't think this is correct .. the EU can't ignore the fact that NI is and is not Irish /and/ is and is not UKer... they seem to be both UKers AND Irish (conflated and conflicted) .. it's not as black and white as "NI is solely a UK problem"

    it isn't
    N.I. though geographically part of the island of Ireland, is legally part of the UK only. The term "UK" refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, as distinct from Southern Ireland, which at one time was part of the UK.


    Devolved government, meaning more autonomy for the regions, which is what Trow was referring to, is an internal matter to each country. The EU has no role, at least at this juncture. Similar concept to "states rights" in the US.
    If Portugal decided to move its capital out of Lisbon, is that a matter for the EU?



    After the Berlin wall came down, Germany moved from Bonn back to Berlin.
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  2. #1247
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    England and Ireland are co guarantors of the Good Friday Agreement. One country wants to leave the EU, the other is staying.

    Quote.. Remove one of these states from the EU and immediately there are problems, not just
    economically and legally but also in terms of heightened political sensitivities as to the
    diverging trajectories of the two guarantors of the Good Friday Agreement. Divergence
    between the UK and Ireland automatically has a polarizing effect on the two main political
    communities in Northern Ireland. Furthermore, that the UK an Irish governments find
    themselves on opposite sides of the negotiating table in Brussels makes it almost impossible
    for them to facilitate agreement between the political parties, as has been essential for all
    major steps of progression in the peace process to date. unquote.. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...)596826_EN.pdf

    Much of the Good Friday Agreement though was founded on EU Human Rights Laws. The UK can't ''Brexit'' and dilute/rewrite those laws. Or can it? Read more below. As it stands members of the UK Government in the form of Unionists [DUP] stand in the way of implementing civil/human/equality rights and a stand alone language act in the North of Ireland. Rights which are enjoyed in England, Wales and Scotland aswell as the South of Ireland.

    Found this and will study it at length. It touches on the finer points i seek to make..

    Quote... Unless addressed, for example in the terms of withdrawal or the future UK-EU relationship,
    a range of rights in Northern Ireland will be affected by Brexit: EU-underpinned rights found
    in the Good Friday Agreement, fundamental rights deriving from EU membership (e.g.
    through the Charter of Fundamental Rights; and labour and employment rights derived from
    EU law. In addition, there is the question, in the absence of access to the CJEU, of how
    current opportunities for effective judicial remedy will be maintained. A further concern is
    that withdrawal from the EU removes the obligation on the UK to remain a party to the ECHR.
    This is of fundamental importance since the protection of human rights in Northern Ireland
    is predicated on the ECHR. To withdraw from the ECHR would fundamentally undermine the
    Good Friday Agreement. The position of the EU recognizes this. Domestic UK politics generally
    does not. Indeed, the UK’s constitutional flexibility means that there are no firm guarantees
    for the future of rights. They remain at the mercy of parliamentary majorities. unquote. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...)596826_EN.pdf

    While Sinn Fein say there will be no return to the status quo and Unionism screams no surrender on the issues, devolved government, it's restoration and evolution along EU Law lines looks less likely.
    Interesting document. Your excerpts reinforce my point.
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  3. #1248
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    Interesting document. Your excerpts reinforce my point.
    It is and i was'nt negating your point by the way. Ever get to thinking that Brexit by design is Thatchers revenge?
    Happiness is an inside job.

  4. #1249
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    N.I. though geographically part of the island of Ireland, is legally part of the UK only. The term "UK" refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, as distinct from Southern Ireland, which at one time was part of the UK.
    i know that UK means the united kingdom of GB and NI which is a bit weird cos I didn't know that Ireland ever had a king? (other than the kings in big island next door when they were basically fodder for low paid labor ).. although the Scotts had kings right? but the welsh didn't?) bit confusing but to me they all sound like servants of the kind of England.


    Devolved government, meaning more autonomy for the regions, which is what Trow was referring to, is an internal matter to each country. The EU has no role, at least at this juncture. Similar concept to "states rights" in the US.

    If Portugal decided to move its capital out of Lisbon, is that a matter for the EU?
    After the Berlin wall came down, Germany moved from Bonn back to Berlin.

    re the issue of More autonomy for NI: To me NIers sound like our border peoples, they don't really feel they truly belong in one or another nation OR they switch alliances to one 'king' or another, depending on their very specific needs for self-preservation (NIers belong in the UK but they are 100x more conservative than the most conservative GBer and don't really follow their liberal laws; so they pick and chose what they want to follow from GB). It may be that now they feel they would be better off in the EU than the UK? that's what should be taken into account.

    If i do an analysis of our border peoples (in PT/SP) they are most happy when they are not pushed to make a decision about choosing btw mom or dad..although most NIers seem to be comfortable being loyal servants to the king of England ..

    your example about PT moving its capital out of Lisbon and Germany moving its capital from Bonn to Berlin: those are local city issues than no one other than the parties involved care about. . you can't equate a situation that could lead to the unravelling of a statelet to an operational decision like moving the Capital of a country..

  5. #1250
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    i know that UK means the united kingdom of GB and NI which is a bit weird cos I didn't know that Ireland ever had a king? (other than the kings in big island next door when they were basically fodder for low paid labor ).. although the Scotts had kings right? but the welsh didn't?) bit confusing but to me they all sound like servants of the kind of England.





    re the issue of More autonomy for NI: To me NIers sound like our border peoples, they don't really feel they truly belong in one or another nation OR they switch alliances to one 'king' or another, depending on their very specific needs for self-preservation (NIers belong in the UK but they are 100x more conservative than the most conservative GBer and don't really follow their liberal laws; so they pick and chose what they want to follow from GB). It may be that now they feel they would be better off in the EU than the UK? that's what should be taken into account.

    If i do an analysis of our border peoples (in PT/SP) they are most happy when they are not pushed to make a decision about choosing btw mom or dad..although most NIers seem to be comfortable being loyal servants to the king of England ..

    your example about PT moving its capital out of Lisbon and Germany moving its capital from Bonn to Berlin: those are local city issues than no one other than the parties involved care about. . you can't equate a situation that could lead to the unravelling of a statelet to an operational decision like moving the Capital of a country..
    Who says moving a capital couldn't unravel a statelet?............

    Try this:

    EU law is a floor below which members may not fall. It's not a ceiling above which they may not rise.


    Example: When Schengen was first signed only five of the then ten EU members participated because it was too advanced for some. Now it has been adopted by the EU and almost all countries participate.


    So too with UK/RoI Common Travel Area, in place since the 1920's. Likewise with both bilateral and multilateral agreements between EU countries so long as they don't conflict with EU law.
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  6. #1251
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    James Brokenshire, British Sec of State for NI has resigned from cabinet today. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42608564

    http://www.itv.com/news/utv/topic/northern-ireland/

    Timely....but hey. if the man's not well.

    Quote.. But in Northern Ireland, as devolution collapsed around him, he was often dismissed as a "do-nothing" secretary of state who allowed the situation to drift when decisive action was required.

    For republicans and nationalists, he and his government were seen as being too close to the DUP.

    As far as some in the DUP were concerned, he should have already moved towards introducing direct rule in the face of what they saw as Sinn Fein intransigence.

    Caught between these two positions, he appeared to be impotent, but whoever replaces him will face exactly the same problems. unquote.
    Last edited by Trow; 08-01-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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  7. #1252
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post

    Try this:

    EU law is a floor below which members may not fall. It's not a ceiling above which they may not rise.
    Hmmmm,

    Quote..This understanding of EU labour law is, however, increasingly contested in some quarters. In recent years two key judgments by the CJEU took the opposite, and very problematic, view that provisions contained in some EU directives may actually act simultaneously as both a floor and a ceiling, permitting no national deviations from the EU-set standard, and certainly no ameliorative action at a national level. unquote. https://www.socialeurope.eu/purpose-...rights-ceiling
    Last edited by Trow; 08-01-2018 at 11:40 PM.
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  8. #1253
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Hmmmm,

    Quote..This understanding of EU labour law is, however, increasingly contested in some quarters. In recent years two key judgments by the CJEU took the opposite, and very problematic, view that provisions contained in some EU directives may actually act simultaneously as both a floor and a ceiling, permitting no national deviations from the EU-set standard, and certainly no ameliorative action at a national level. unquote. https://www.socialeurope.eu/purpose-...rights-ceiling
    That's very interesting indeed, and as the commentator noted potentially very troubling. Hopefully it's the exception that proves that the normal rule is otherwise. And as your excerpt notes it refers only to EU labor law.


    Imagine this: Country A, has a permitted maximum blood alcohol level of 1.00. EU passes law that says no country can permit more than 0.8.
    Country B says we wish to go to 0.6 and EU says no.
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  9. #1254
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    That's very interesting indeed, and as the commentator noted potentially very troubling. Hopefully it's the exception that proves that the normal rule is otherwise. And as your excerpt notes it refers only to EU labor law.


    Imagine this: Country A, has a permitted maximum blood alcohol level of 1.00. EU passes law that says no country can permit more than 0.8.
    Country B says we wish to go to 0.6 and EU says no.
    Scroll back there and note you posted ''EU Law'' without specifying what aspect.

    Country B then challenges the directive via the appeals and amendments process. Alternatively and in unison with an appeal, Country B can simply ignore the directive and pay their nominal monetary fine annually, just like Britain has done in the past in relation to the use of razor wire.

    Country B has a strong case along health and safety lines.
    Last edited by Trow; 11-01-2018 at 11:50 AM.
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  10. #1255
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    on the clueless David Davis, another whino (whine whine? how unfair! how come they don't respect us anymore? the UK is NOT just any other EU nation, the UK is special..oh so special... i'd say send Farage in to negotiate)
    RNY
    ---

    The EU is "surprised that the United Kingdom is surprised that we are preparing for a scenario announced by the U.K. government itself."

    Europe has completely turned the tables on Brexit.

    Leonid Bershidsky
    January 10, 2018, 1:00 AM CST

    (...)

    David Davis, the U.K. Brexit minister, has written Prime Minister Theresa May a letter complaining that the EU is preparing for the eventuality of trade talks ending without a deal. The EU's Brexit guidance for companies -- such as the European Medicines Agency recommendations for pharmaceutical firms -- makes no mention of any transition period before the U.K. becomes a "third country," an outsider. Instead, they say companies may need to relocate outposts and change procedures in preparation for the U.K.'s withdrawal.

    (...)

  11. #1256
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Nigel Farage warming to idea of 2nd Brexit referendum...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8153636.html
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  12. #1257
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Unforeseen (by the British) Consequences Of Brexit #59683

    Some people seem to be planning ahead for post-Brexit trade implications, and as usual it ain't the Brits. Multiple developments on Ireland's shipping routes recently.

    First up the largest RoRo ferry in the world has started a direct Dublin-Zeebrugge-Rotterdam route, bypassing Britland entirely. It's worth pointing out that as a major transshipment hub for the rest of Europe Belgium is actually Ireland third-largest export destination, only very very marginally behind the UK.

    https://afloat.ie/port-news/dublin-p...to-dublin-port

    Again typically, da Britz is whinging that this is beastly and dastardly treacherous behaviour by those awful Paddies. Davis' comments are (once more, typically) hilariously clueless.

    http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/...yhead-13812310

    In further news a new passenger and freight service from Cork to Santander in Spain is opening. Spain, Portugal and southern France take 3-4% of Irish exports so it's reasonably significant.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...pril-1.3357346

    At the end of the day it's simple numbers - despite the demented Imperial ravings of Davis or the crazed southern 1880 Club, the UK takes 13% of Irish exports and most of that is food products which they'll have to mostly keep buying anyway cos they can't feed themselves. The rest of the EU/EFTA take 44% of Irish exports. If the British want to play silly buggers on Brexit, we'll simply find a way to bypass them.

  13. #1258
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    N.I. though geographically part of the island of Ireland, is legally part of the UK only. The term "UK" refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, as distinct from Southern Ireland, which at one time was part of the UK.


    Devolved government, meaning more autonomy for the regions, which is what Trow was referring to, is an internal matter to each country. The EU has no role, at least at this juncture. Similar concept to "states rights" in the US.
    If Portugal decided to move its capital out of Lisbon, is that a matter for the EU?



    After the Berlin wall came down, Germany moved from Bonn back to Berlin.
    Some historical facts for you sir as you are fond of facts:

    1. A brutally oppressed colony of the British Empire was far worse than simply being 'part of the UK'. This statement is inaccurate and a gross understatement of what actually happened. There was no devolved government or pretence of localised democracy before 1918, unless we are counting electorally limited local tenancy boards set up after the land wars.

    2. If you are going to insist on calling the North-East of the island 'Northern Ireland'- The 26 counties were never called Southern Ireland. This is a pejorative colonial term used to lump the independent Irish State in with Britain. It is typically used by people who don't like to call the 26 independent counties of Ireland by its proper name-The Republic of Ireland. Whereas Northern Ireland is a disputed territory, the Republic is a recognised independent State, and so calling it 'Southern Ireland' is just being wilfully ignorant.

  14. #1259
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    But Tusk was the only one you named and he's not a negotiator.


    While I don't want to put words in her mouth, I'd be willing to bet RNY doesn't know the specifics of what you're referring to either. She and I, constitute about 30% of the regular posters to this thread.


    All you had to do was indicate that you were referring to the collapse of N.I. power sharing, (which isn't really on topic in a Brexit thread), but you were apparently too lazy to do even that.


    The constant "woe is me" I'm a victim, it's always about me, bleating from both Nationalists and Unionists in N.I. is the primary reason most in the RoI have abandoned any pretense at a desire for UI. A pox on both houses.
    'N.I. isn't on topic in a Brexit thread'.

    If that isn't pure ignorance towards the consequences of Brexit...

    Recent opinion polls show 60% support in the Republic for a United Ireland while we're at it.

  15. #1260
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    I don't need to link you to explosives, you already did that yourself. Plus, you claim to be under surveillance by the PSNI, presumably for that or similar reasons.
    I was not aware presuming people have committed wrongdoing was allowed on here.

    Comments like this could get a political site unwanted attention. Not to mention I recall similar comments being against the rules.

    Anonymity is also a right of people on a debate site. Whatever allegedly stupid comments people may or may not have made about themselves is no reason to sensationalise things and 'presume' they're under investigation.

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