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Thread: Brexit.

  1. #1036
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    Which US would be the question. Obama was somewhat in love with Merkel's EU but as we've seen with the CIA/FBI turf war backed type Presidential candidates, what you see on the surface is just window dressing for powerful interests behind the scenes.

    Trump has been pressured to tow the anti-Russia line to some degree and deep US foreign policy seems to come from the state organisations rather than from the political parties.

    Plus the Saudis do what the Saudis want to do, it would be interesting to understand why they'd seek to weaken the EU. I suppose the Saudis do not want any power block expanding its reach ( however limited) into their region.

    There's a lot of shady Actors running similar to Monroe Doctrine type interference in the world at the moment.
    I agree about window dressing. You will remember a certain tension over Ukraine when Merkel jumped ship to make a deal that stepped in the way of possible ground war there with NATO involvement. The US has taken care to make Eastern Europe primarily its turf (Kosovo, for example) in military terms, as a political unification of Russia, Eastern Europe, Turkey and Western Europe would be a competition nightmare for the US. All that industrial capacity, a very large population, and plenty of natural resources. And that did not look an impossible prospect, 20 years back.

    You will also recall all the talk a few years back of the Euro overtaking the dollar as dominant global currency. The way that the crash played out put paid to that.

    By and large, the US lets France and Britain have some post colonial crumbs in the Middle East and North Africa in exchange for putting its forces into play. But underlying that is raw competition, with the US having decisively displaced the British Empire in the mid 20th Century as main global colonial power, and not about to give up that position to anyone willingly. The end of the USSR put an end to the US interest in having a strong capitalist buffer in W. Europe.

    The Saudis have just signed off a 320 billion arms deal with the US and are being allowed to wreak havoc with Yemen. Saudi rival Qatar is under the hammer. I presume some price comes attached, on both US and Saudi sides.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 12-06-2017 at 12:44 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #1037
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I agree about window dressing. You will remember a certain tension over Ukraine when Merkel jumped ship to make a deal that stepped in the way of possible ground war there with NATO involvement. The US has taken care to make Eastern Europe primarily its turf (Kosovo, for example) in military terms, as a political unification of Russia, Eastern Europe, Turkey and Western Europe would be a competition nightmare for the US. All that industrial capacity, a very large population, and plenty of natural resources. And that did not look an impossible prospect, 20 years back.

    You will also recall all the talk a few years back of the Euro overtaking the dollar as dominant global currency. The way that the crash played out put paid to that.

    By and large, the US lets France and Britain have some post colonial crumbs in the Middle East and North Africa in exchange for putting its forces into play. But underlying that is raw competition, with the US having decisively displaced the British Empire in the mid 20th Century as main global colonial power, and not about to give up that position to anyone willingly. The end of the USSR put an end to the US interest in having a strong capitalist buffer in W. Europe.

    The Saudis have just signed off a 320 billion arms deal with the US and are being allowed to wreak havoc with Yemen. Saudi rival Qatar is under the hammer. I presume some price comes attached, on both US and Saudi sides.
    There's a new dimension to all this, before it was just all opaque but largely in hand. Now much of it is dribbling out into the open and there are now multiple non conforming parties who are not just going to do what they are told, indeed with the Gulf countries they're often the ones telling Western countries what to do against those countries real preferences.

    Add in the BRICS and their increasing independence of action and The Law Of Unintended Consequences is rapidly becoming the norm.

  3. #1038
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    There's a new dimension to all this, before it was just all opaque but largely in hand. Now much of it is dribbling out into the open and there are now multiple non conforming parties who are not just going to do what they are told, indeed with the Gulf countries they're often the ones telling Western countries what to do against those countries real preferences.

    Add in the BRICS and their increasing independence of action and The Law Of Unintended Consequences is rapidly becoming the norm.
    I reckon it is a two way street with much wheeling and dealing and illusions and delusions on both sides of these devil's pacts. Certainly now there is a greater flow of information to the public - although far from complete, we must assume.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 12-06-2017 at 06:18 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #1039
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Not sure what these shenanagins have to do with brexit. If/when UK leaves they'll try to sort something with Russia, etc. Maybe all the shuffling is a sort of preparation?

    BTW, I mentioned the DUP/brexit thing on the UK GE thread, accounts for the rush to sign them up, already on board since Cameron times.... No requirement in NI to publish the names of donors.

  5. #1040
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Have to say that Cameron and Osborne are getting away with murder reputation wise as the feeding frenzy turns on their successors. Cameron's cynicism in trying to neuter the UKIP vote has thrown the UK into years of chaos and existential crisis and yet despite that Osborne gets to snipe away at May's Govt as if Osborne and Cameron were somehow innocent of guilt in the farce.

  6. #1041
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Well yes. Was Osborne in favour of the Referendum though? He is definitely giving the impression that he wasn't on board for the idea. On paper 80% of the ppl voted for a pro Brexit party. In reality I think - with no evidence whatever -that many who voted Leave really want the benefits without the costs. Which Boris implied they could have. Mr Cameron is not popular in our house. It's a nightmare getting Irish passports for my lads under the Granny rule. The worst bit is three proofs of address. They rent with other guys. No utility bills , its all smart cards ...sorry I veered off topic but I've seem to have spent months - and hundreds collecting documents. They have been instructed reproducing in the 27 or else!

  7. #1042
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Yea, both Cameron & Osborne ********d up. Happy now to wind up those they left behind.

    Short, medium and long term chaos, yes, but didn't we foresee that post the 2007 economic collapse? I saw yesterday that 85k new vehicles were registered here is the last 5 years... what crisis? This, like qe is the new norm, a financial engineering fudge to enable the economy to bumble along.

    brexit/whatsit - nobody knows, but, as I said already, a fudge will be found.

  8. #1043
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    May offers guarantee on rights of EU citizens.

    The foremost reason for many voters was to rid the UK of them "bloody foreigners who are taking our precious jobs". And now this??? The irony...
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  9. #1044
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    May offers guarantee on rights of EU citizens.

    The foremost reason for many voters was to rid the UK of them "bloody foreigners who are taking our precious jobs". And now this??? The irony...
    Typical opening gambit. Brits first shot. It sounds like a concession until you look in detail. What about family members of an EU citizen temporarily absence, for example. The long/medium term objective is to clear em out. If you arrive after March 2019 you will have no rights.

    This a.m. I hear the fishermen are rumbling, just one more issue....

  10. #1045
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    The EU want more money from the rest of us


    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...inances_en.pdf
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  11. #1046
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    The EU want more money from the rest of us


    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...inances_en.pdf

    When you look at this, it is a reminder how much we are paying for this mickey mouse cabal of bureaucrats.

    At around 1% of the combined Gross NationalIncome (GNI) of its Member States, the EUbudget is relatively small. For every €100 earned,European citizens pay an average of €50 each intaxes and social contributions, only €1 of whichgoes towards funding the EU budget.For less than the price of a cup of coffee a day,Europeans fund an EU budget that manages awide range of issues that go beyond nationalborders and necessitate a European or internationalresponse. From climate and energy, to migration,consumer protection, globalisation, employment,the single market and the common currency, thebudget contributes to the prosperity of EU citizensand the success of common policies. Experiencehas shown that even a modest budget at Europeanlevel can have a major impact on the ground
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #1047
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    The EU want more money from the rest of us


    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...inances_en.pdf
    It is the consequence of poor political management, as well as pork barrel politicking.
    More than 50% of the EU budget goes on agriculture, which is vote buying under any other name. Since the days of the Mansholt plan, the policy has been used by politicians as a "you scratch my back..." arrangement; when one of them has an election coming up they arrange for agriculture to get a boost of money.
    Just yesterday I heard a comment that agriculture votes passed all the referendums in Ireland.

    First, we need to deal with agriculture as an economic activity, with an economic contribution, properly measured, not in terms of selling cheddar cheese to UK supermarkets.
    Then, we need to recognise that more and more voters are not from an agriculture background. Already happening with the boundary changes.
    Then we need to translate that into something other than tweedle-dum tweedle-dee politics.

    Don't hold yer breath.

  13. #1048
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by barrym View Post
    It is the consequence of poor political management, as well as pork barrel politicking.
    More than 50% of the EU budget goes on agriculture, which is vote buying under any other name. Since the days of the Mansholt plan, the policy has been used by politicians as a "you scratch my back..." arrangement; when one of them has an election coming up they arrange for agriculture to get a boost of money.
    Just yesterday I heard a comment that agriculture votes passed all the referendums in Ireland.

    First, we need to deal with agriculture as an economic activity, with an economic contribution, properly measured, not in terms of selling cheddar cheese to UK supermarkets.
    Then, we need to recognise that more and more voters are not from an agriculture background. Already happening with the boundary changes.
    Then we need to translate that into something other than tweedle-dum tweedle-dee politics.

    Don't hold yer breath.
    Also, the CAP (along with similar protective arrangements for US farmers) is directly responsible for poverty in third world.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  14. #1049
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    Also, the CAP (along with similar protective arrangements for US farmers) is directly responsible for poverty in third world.
    +1

    Another whole can of worms. We have created a situation where the well off politically have protected themselves and 5 private sector entities control 70%+ of food production and distribution....

  15. #1050
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    The UK have indicated the end of current Fisheries agreement (will kick in in 2 years).

    It will push Irish and other EU fishing vessels out of UK waters - and in some cases into the EU waters around Ireland.

    Tourism figures have also confirmed what was obvious from the 'vacancies' signs everywhere, that British tourist numbers (the biggest section of tourists in Ireland) are down, due to the fall in sterling.

    I heard an RTE journalists saying recently in apparent amazement "someone has said that Brexit will do Ireland more damage than it will Britain."

    People just aren't getting it.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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