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Thread: Brexit.

  1. #2161
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by barrym View Post
    CTA deal -

    "The two governments have agreed to maintain existing arrangements on social insurance, child benefit and pensions and they are working on new arrangements to ensure that British and Irish citizens will continue to have equal access to public health and education services in both countries."

    And 'free travel' of course. As long as you have ID 'for security reasons'

    Call me what you like, why don't we rejoin them, after all we are only about 100 years gone, a mere nothing.....

    And we could benefit from -

    "Well, that certainly looks like a 'romp home for the far right' but what has happened in the locals is much more complex." when we leave the EU with them.....

    FFS.
    Well, they are running our police force and intelligence service. But there is still a separate parliament making separate decisions. In general I'm all for cross border arrangements for human beings. There should be more of them, not less, I think. All those arrangements have been in place for decades (some since the 1920s) but not all written down before. And it was Ireland brought in the requirement for ID, out of the blue and with no explanation.

    Perhaps at the behest of the UK, but who knows ?

    I don't understand your comment about 'leaving the EU with them'.

    The point I've been making is purely an observation - that socially and economically Ireland remains embedded much more deeply with the U.K. than anyone wants to admit above the parapet - and that abrupt severance would be a profound shock to the Irish economy.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #2162
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by dedogs View Post
    you have to know your measure mate i might as well be lookin up a ducks arse as tryin to understand all that only i hear what hes sayin and he doesnt say much thats wrong....
    If an adult is not capable of independent thought, he or she may as well be looking up a duck's arse.

    Nobody cares what your boss thinks. Nothing is more dispiriting than reading brainless copy and pastę anecdotes of he said or she said x or y. I come on to forums to read intelligent thought and analysis, not trivial nonsense.

  3. #2163
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    If an adult is not capable of independent thought, he or she may as well be looking up a duck's arse.

    Nobody cares what your boss thinks. Nothing is more dispiriting than reading brainless copy and pastę anecdotes of he said or she said x or y. I come on to forums to read intelligent thought and analysis, not trivial nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Well, they are running our police force and intelligence service. But there is still a separate parliament making separate decisions. In general I'm all for cross border arrangements for human beings. There should be more of them, not less, I think. All those arrangements have been in place for decades (some since the 1920s) but not all written down before. And it was Ireland brought in the requirement for ID, out of the blue and with no explanation.

    Perhaps at the behest of the UK, but who knows ?

    I don't understand your comment about 'leaving the EU with them'.

    The point I've been making is purely an observation - that socially and economically Ireland remains embedded much more deeply with the U.K. than anyone wants to admit above the parapet - and that abrupt severance would be a profound shock to the Irish economy.
    They are probably holding sway over the current Garda commissioner. I very much doubt they are able to control the general force though, given the dislike among the rank and file of the govts decision to appoint an ex RUC man with zero regard for national security risk.

    Afaik Army intelligence, in which a friend of a friend used to work in in Dublin, remains completely independent from outside influence as does DOFA intelligence gathering. Ireland has spies like anyone else, often well hidden as 'diplomats' or 'consulate workers'.

    The govt is anglophile in some respects, not so anglophile in others. The organs of the State are not all easily influenced by British policy either. Brexit actually is helping in this respect in reinforcing the truth, we are a separate country and no amount of well placed spooks can change that.

    It also helps that this govt is less prone to arse Kissing in foreign policy than the previous one. Theyre prob just too pro NATO and pro Security Apparatus. Anyways lets see how the elections go.

  4. #2164
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    this poll will focus the minds


    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  5. #2165
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Well, they are running our police force and intelligence service. But there is still a separate parliament making separate decisions. In general I'm all for cross border arrangements for human beings. There should be more of them, not less, I think. All those arrangements have been in place for decades (some since the 1920s) but not all written down before. And it was Ireland brought in the requirement for ID, out of the blue and with no explanation.

    Perhaps at the behest of the UK, but who knows ?
    They didn't/wouldn't join Schengen, we, as usual, cravenly followed suit, didn't even look to the EU to provide an option for us to join....This is part of a long term (since the 1920s) laziness and forelock tugging relationship wit our former 'owner'


    I don't understand your comment about 'leaving the EU with them'.
    A joking reference to the possibility of Irexit. We would like to but we need the handouts.....

    The point I've been making is purely an observation - that socially and economically Ireland remains embedded much more deeply with the U.K. than anyone wants to admit above the parapet - and that abrupt severance would be a profound shock to the Irish economy.
    Agreed, and the recently signed bit of paper is just another below the parapet piece of evidence.

  6. #2166
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    They are probably holding sway over the current Garda commissioner. I very much doubt they are able to control the general force though, given the dislike among the rank and file of the govts decision to appoint an ex RUC man with zero regard for national security risk.

    Afaik Army intelligence, in which a friend of a friend used to work in in Dublin, remains completely independent from outside influence as does DOFA intelligence gathering. Ireland has spies like anyone else, often well hidden as 'diplomats' or 'consulate workers'.

    The govt is anglophile in some respects, not so anglophile in others. The organs of the State are not all easily influenced by British policy either. Brexit actually is helping in this respect in reinforcing the truth, we are a separate country and no amount of well placed spooks can change that.

    It also helps that this govt is less prone to arse Kissing in foreign policy than the previous one. Theyre prob just too pro NATO and pro Security Apparatus. Anyways lets see how the elections go.
    The rush to join the latest fudge of an EU army is evidence, imo, of a total line-up of our military with NATO. I have always wondered what 'army intelligence' meant, now I think I know, working out how to get our hands on some more boys toys.

  7. #2167
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by barrym View Post
    They didn't/wouldn't join Schengen, we, as usual, cravenly followed suit, didn't even look to the EU to provide an option for us to join....This is part of a long term (since the 1920s) laziness and forelock tugging relationship wit our former 'owner'
    The extent of economic and social interaction between Ireland and the UK is deep, extensive, at micro and macro level. The micro level is pervasive. There is a big Irish population in England, Scotland and Wales. About three quarter of a million U.K. passport holders in Ireland (Republic). In the head, Ireland (Republic) is all EU, but in the day to day operation of life, enmeshed with the U.K. - and it is not an equal co-dependence. The U.K. gets a labour force, dairy and beef, and oil-filled radiators. I'm not sure what else. Ireland gets the 'land bridge' to mainland Europe, access to a big market, somewhere to our surplus population to, and a lot of the food we eat. Read an interesting article on The Emergency this morning - food was very scarce here and fossil fuels close to non existent. We are a lot more dependent for those things now than we were then.

    Ireland (R) has always had 'special arrangements' to control migration of non-Irish people to the UK in place - I'd suspected it from observation and it was confirmed on an RTE Radio One history programme earlier this year.

    A joking reference to the possibility of Irexit. We would like to but we need the handouts.....
    I don't think that people to want to leave. The rich / FG want to carry on comprador relations with EU wealth and the rest of us are still relieved to be dealing with a set up that is not overtly colonialist as it was with G.B. But want to or not, there will be pressures to leave post Brexit for the reasons given above.

    Agreed, and the recently signed bit of paper is just another below the parapet piece of evidence.
    Spain seems to be getting some big UK gov shipping contracts since announcing they will look after all the British Ex Pats in the same way.

    How do you think we would get on with a Farage run U.K. from the point of view of all our newly confirmed mutual social obligations ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #2168
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Everything you say is correct, we have a siamese twin like relationship. However, I see evidence from the commercial sector that we need to diversify our markets. The UK is almost certainly going to experience a serious downturn in its economy in the next few years. This will not just be because of leaving the EU but more because there will be a significant changes in the political scene.

    Even though Ferrage will 'win' the EP seats and then work to leave the EU as soon as possible, there will be a GE. The residue of Ferrgae, whatever he calls it will queer the political pitch. The first past the post voting will rescue an otherwise disasterous election for the Cons, leading to another hung commons. But what sort of a government will result? The anti-EU right will expect to govern, in some format. What sort of reaction will Brx make?

    Since a majority of out day to day commerce is (still) with the UK we will suffer. The £ will tank.

  9. #2169
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    If an adult is not capable of independent thought, he or she may as well be looking up a duck's arse.

    Nobody cares what your boss thinks. Nothing is more dispiriting than reading brainless copy and pastę anecdotes of he said or she said x or y. I come on to forums to read intelligent thought and analysis, not trivial nonsense.
    i do mate.... hes payin me....

  10. #2170
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by barrym View Post
    Everything you say is correct, we have a siamese twin like relationship. However, I see evidence from the commercial sector that we need to diversify our markets. The UK is almost certainly going to experience a serious downturn in its economy in the next few years. This will not just be because of leaving the EU but more because there will be a significant changes in the political scene.
    I'm intrigued as to why political changes would impact on the UK economy. I'm accustomed to think of it as working the other way around. Since King Charles' head was cut off, the City of London has pretty well done its own thing. The UK has a substantial internal market and even Scotland leaving and staying in the EU would not surely impact not that much? Farage is far right and is not likely to want to queer the pitch of British capitalism.

    In Ireland there have been worthy souls arguing for less dependency on the UK and less dependency on the global corporations for thirty years now, and they have not been listened to, and the Irish economy has expanded beyond belief (at the cost of remaining 22 billion debt, but still...) . The only alternative model I saw was northern Italy with its networks of small high value manufacturing plants - but Germany has knocked the heck out of that.
    There is a crisis of inequality and overproduction - Trump's answer is trade war. Not an easy time for any country to be out looking for new markets, either the UK or Ireland.


    Even though Ferrage will 'win' the EP seats and then work to leave the EU as soon as possible, there will be a GE. The residue of Ferrgae, whatever he calls it will queer the political pitch. The first past the post voting will rescue an otherwise disasterous election for the Cons, leading to another hung commons. But what sort of a government will result? The anti-EU right will expect to govern, in some format. What sort of reaction will Brx make?

    Since a majority of out day to day commerce is (still) with the UK we will suffer. The £ will tank.
    With the Tories on 11% how is first past the post going to work out for them ? Thatcher at least got 33%.

    Yes. We are facing into another Emergency, but without home grown veg, donkeys and horses and carts, and without a steady supply of peat.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  11. #2171
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    With the Tories on 11% how is first past the post going to work out for them ? Thatcher at least got 33%.

    Yes. We are facing into another Emergency, but without home grown veg, donkeys and horses and carts, and without a steady supply of peat.
    There are plenty of examples that the UK electorate changes it mind between partial elections and GEs.

    The EP and Locals are partial, the turnout is small.

    In the shires a GE will have big turnout and Cons will do better, not enough, but better, more seats.

    Either way there will be a hung result. Farrage is the unknown. Of course, if he manages to leave the EU on his terms he may withdraw, he did vis a vis UKIP. If he continues his brexit party to a GE, and only he, any replacement will win very little, then bets are off.

  12. #2172
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  13. #2173
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    May



    “Some suggest leaving without a deal. But whatever you think of that outcome, parliament has been clear it will do all it can to stop it. If not no deal, then it would have to be a general election or a second referendum that could lead to revocation – and no Brexit at all”.





    She said that, if the Bill passes, it will not be ratified until after MPs have had a vote on whether to have a second referendum on Brexit.

    “So to those MPs who want a second referendum to confirm the deal: you need a deal and therefore a withdrawal agreement Bill to make it happen. So let it have its second reading and then make your case to parliament,” she said.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...99990?mode=amp
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  14. #2174
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    Resulting from DCon's post and the IT item, I am now v. confused (not a new phenomenon). Can someone elaborate on the possible UK GE options? Assuming any attempt to pass the Agreement fails and May is dumped?

  15. #2175
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    Default Re: Brexit.

    So, May is gone (for trying very hard to square the circle with which she had been presented). We are heading towards war, Barrym. Trump is driving trade war at all costs in the attempt to recoup the indebtedness of US capital. Europe, as much as China and Iran, is on his list.
    Even in my very, very quiet part of the world, an overt fascist stood for election. Even in this quiet place, there was a queue to rip his posters down. There is a conflagration ahead.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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