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Thread: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Interesting thread. People are quick to look at weather as a cause of flooding , and forget about land use.
    Bit like blaming guns and not those that shoot them
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Enda

    The Taoiseach has said a national long-term forecasting system will be introduced to help prepare for future flooding.



    http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/1231/75697...frank-cleanup/
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Yikes


    ESBGroup has confirmed it is to increase the spill rate at Parteen Weir to 470 cumecs (cubic metres per second) today
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Limerick_...87180008710144
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    The mindset of the typical Irish politician

    Wednesday’s (September 18 ) development plan meeting Cllr Aengus O’Rourke (FF ) expressed surprise at the map, stating the area “goes way beyond the 2009 flood.”

    “This has negative implications and I would be proposing to pull back the area to the flood events of 2009, which were described as a once in a generation experience.”


    http://www.advertiser.ie/athlone/art...sk-of-flooding
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    So, how many local Councils have completely privatised their flood assistance to private contractors ?

    Instead of local workers, unionised, who knew their areas, random crews of casual workers standing around at a loss ?

    Emergency answering services are also privatised. The public rings an emergency out of hours number, which is then answered by a private firm - which then, theoretically, contacts the Council.

    Why the extra layer of bureacracy ? Central government is underwriting the costs of all this.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Was talking to a neighbour last night in his home about this topic.

    I suggested digging absolutely huge and very deep reservoirs wherever floods were inevitable. He agreed as he had spent his life driving bulldozers and allsorts of heavy machinery.
    "Child's play", he said. We already have the tools.

    Huge pumps would empty the unwanted water in dry periods to be ready for the next deluge. I am no mathematician but looking at the flood levels there seems to me there is not an astronomical amount of water causing all the trouble to those unfortunate people having their homes and businesses ruined. Where's the Romans when you need them!

    My large ground level shed was flooded in 2009. I dug a channel and used plastic pipes to take the excess water through two garden walls to the shore in the road outside our home. So far so good.
    We are all insane animals existing for a time on an obviously unfinished planet.
    www.irelandtoo.com

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Quote Originally Posted by MauriceColgan View Post
    Was talking to a neighbour last night in his home about this topic.

    I suggested digging absolutely huge and very deep reservoirs wherever floods were inevitable. He agreed as he had spent his life driving bulldozers and allsorts of heavy machinery.
    "Child's play", he said. We already have the tools.

    Huge pumps would empty the unwanted water in dry periods to be ready for the next deluge. I am no mathematician but looking at the flood levels there seems to me there is not an astronomical amount of water causing all the trouble to those unfortunate people having their homes and businesses ruined. Where's the Romans when you need them!

    My large ground level shed was flooded in 2009. I dug a channel and used plastic pipes to take the excess water through two garden walls to the shore in the road outside our home. So far so good.
    yes, I didn't want to keep banging on at a time people have to deal with this much water in their living rooms but seems that you guys lack a critical mass of engineers ... maybe teaching kidz a little more math in school would help?

    building reservoirs is a good idea (but ye probably need water charges for that) and levees... although i dont know the terrain it may not support levees?

    or you can choose engineers from the refugees that are coming from Syria?.. I don't know, you need to do something

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Rivers flood, always have and always will. The trick is to let them flood where they will do the least damage.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    yes, I didn't want to keep banging on at a time people have to deal with this much water in their living rooms but seems that you guys lack a critical mass of engineers ... maybe teaching kidz a little more math in school would help?

    building reservoirs is a good idea (but ye probably need water charges for that) and levees... although i dont know the terrain it may not support levees?

    or you can choose engineers from the refugees that are coming from Syria?.. I don't know, you need to do something
    A cousin of mine is a civil engineer, although Irish he grew up in the USA and now lives here where he builds bridges over motorways and rivers. Unfortunately we have lost contact in recent years.

    The peat lands close to the Shannon would be ideal for reservoirs once the peat was cleared to bedrock. The bedrock could be blasted to a suitable depth. Bring in the Irish Army engineers. This is a National emergency!
    We are all insane animals existing for a time on an obviously unfinished planet.
    www.irelandtoo.com

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    yes, I didn't want to keep banging on at a time people have to deal with this much water in their living rooms but seems that you guys lack a critical mass of engineers ... maybe teaching kidz a little more math in school would help?

    building reservoirs is a good idea (but ye probably need water charges for that) and levees... although i dont know the terrain it may not support levees?

    or you can choose engineers from the refugees that are coming from Syria?.. I don't know, you need to do something
    There's a lot of simplistic and happy clappy let the animals run free talk about the current flooding.

    It's a deeply complex problem. There is no shortage of civil engineers, heavy and light earth moving machinery and general technical know how and money in the country.

    What there is is a very complex web of Govt inertia and planning bans on interfering with the existing natural environment and European legislation preventing the destruction of special conservation areas. If a community decide they want to crank up the diggers, build some levees and lay down some concrete to prevent flooding they simply won't be let do it.

    This country is full of people who worked in construction. Levees, poured concrete walls and drainage would be child's play to them. Also the Govt are apparently flush with money after practically eliminating the deficit ( clever accounting ) and 5-6% growth rates+ lies

    Back to the flooding, it's the rainfall and what to do with it that's the problem. In some areas like the Shannon it would simply be a matter of building walls and levees. There would be many many miles to be sorted out, it's quite doable financially and technically.In the areas where there are metres high of practically flash flooding it's a whole lot less possible to get on top of potential flooding. We simply seem to be getting more intense rainfall events that are extremely unpredictable in where and when they'll hit. Look at Europe itself, every year flooding just overwhelms many many areas that have had the resources to plan ahead if planning ahead had been practical.

    Getting through the political, environmental and planning restrictions would require a political will not yet seen.

    We have the worst possible Govt in place ATM as regards being willing to invest in protecting communities, so it will take some considerable time for the political will to exist to sort out what is sortable.



    Building flood walls works, some of the worst towns for flooding in the past survived the recent flooding because a mixture of temporary flood barriers and permanent flood walls worked. In some areas the flooding has now exceeded reasonably newly constructed flooding defenses. Our climate is changing and we will have to respond to that whether we want to or not, the personal and financial hardships the flooding cause will eventually spark actions to tackle it.


    I would think myself that we will see a huge push to plant mountainsides to try and stem the water flow. I don't think it will make a huge difference and our current Govt is in thrall to the windfarm industries who are intent on ripping up the mountains and countryside to build windfarms on a truly mega scale. There are a lot of stakeholders behind the scenes here.
    Last edited by Shaadi; 03-01-2016 at 07:33 PM.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Quote Originally Posted by MauriceColgan View Post
    Was talking to a neighbour last night in his home about this topic.

    I suggested digging absolutely huge and very deep reservoirs wherever floods were inevitable. He agreed as he had spent his life driving bulldozers and allsorts of heavy machinery.
    "Child's play", he said. We already have the tools.

    Huge pumps would empty the unwanted water in dry periods to be ready for the next deluge. I am no mathematician but looking at the flood levels there seems to me there is not an astronomical amount of water causing all the trouble to those unfortunate people having their homes and businesses ruined. Where's the Romans when you need them!

    My large ground level shed was flooded in 2009. I dug a channel and used plastic pipes to take the excess water through two garden walls to the shore in the road outside our home. So far so good.
    I was just reading in the UK Independent that this is being tried and is working. Holding ponds, but also lightweight timber dams. Not quite sure how those work. And tree planting on the hills.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    There's a lot of simplistic and happy clappy let the animals run free talk about the current flooding.

    It's a deeply complex problem. There is no shortage of civil engineers, heavy and light earth moving machinery and general technical know how and money in the country.

    What there is is a very complex web of Govt inertia and planning bans on interfering with the existing natural environment and European legislation preventing the destruction of special conservation areas. If a community decide they want to crank up the diggers, build some levees and lay down some concrete to prevent flooding they simply won't be let do it.

    This country is full of people who worked in construction. Levees, poured concrete walls and drainage would be child's play to them. Also the Govt are apparently flush with money after practically eliminating the deficit ( clever accounting ) and 5-6% growth rates+ lies

    Back to the flooding, it's the rainfall and what to do with it that's the problem. In some areas like the Shannon it would simply be a matter of building walls and levees. There would be many many miles to be sorted out, it's quite doable financially and technically.In the areas where there are metres high of practically flash flooding it's a whole lot less possible to get on top of potential flooding. We simply seem to be getting more intense rainfall events that are extremely unpredictable in where and when they'll hit. Look at Europe itself, every year flooding just overwhelms many many areas that have had the resources to plan ahead if planning ahead had been practical.

    Getting through the political, environmental and planning restrictions would require a political will not yet seen.

    We have the worst possible Govt in place ATM as regards being willing to invest in protecting communities, so it will take some considerable time for the political will to exist to sort out what is sortable.



    Building flood walls works, some of the worst towns for flooding in the past survived the recent flooding because a mixture of temporary flood barriers and permanent flood walls worked. In some areas the flooding has now exceeded reasonably newly constructed flooding defenses. Our climate is changing and we will have to respond to that whether we want to or not, the personal and financial hardships the flooding cause will eventually spark actions to tackle it.


    I would think myself that we will see a huge push to plant mountainsides to try and stem the water flow. I don't think it will make a huge difference and our current Govt is in thrall to the windfarm industries who are intent on ripping up the mountains and countryside to build windfarms on a truly mega scale. There are a lot of stakeholders behind the scenes here.
    There's no one, complete, answer.

    Tree planting, hedgerows across contours, agricultural practices that don't leave earth bare in the winter.

    Stop building on flood plains. Create lakes and dams (is working, where expertly designed).

    Improve and flood- protect individual properties. Bring a few Dutch engineers in to look at how to protect farm complexes (houses and barns)

    Historically people have abandoned properties before that get regularly flooded. And then in the boom those sites were redeveloped.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    There's no one, complete, answer.

    Tree planting, hedgerows across contours, agricultural practices that don't leave earth bare in the winter.

    Stop building on flood plains. Create lakes and dams (is working, where expertly designed).

    Improve and flood- protect individual properties. Bring a few Dutch engineers in to look at how to protect farm complexes (houses and barns)

    Historically people have abandoned properties before that get regularly flooded. And then in the boom those sites were redeveloped.
    Yep it's complex, for a start there has been much reforestation in the last few decades and the problem is getting worse than it was when the country was almost fully denuded of trees.

    When the land gets saturated no amount of theoretical natural defenses will hold back the water and when you look at a place like the Shannon with something like only a 15 metre drop in 50 miles? in places then that water ain't going anywhere quickly.


    In reality there are many stakeholders and vested interests involved for simple solutions. There's BNM and the run off from the bogs, the ESB and their dams, flooding where there's been very little interference with the land and many thousands of farmers who can't be reasonably or economically expected to turn their land into unviable swamp so that a few hundred houses somewhere might avoid the worst of the floods.

    Then there's the planning and tourist industry. There is zero chance that the planning and tourist bodies would allow levees along the banks of the Shannon. The environmentalists will fight to stop drainage, dredging or interference with the existing natural rivers.


    Then there's the simple fact that we don't know whether the recent flooding weather is going to worsen, stay the same or get better.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    + there's a mountain of ignorance and indifference to the needs of rural Ireland in this Govt. They're urban disposed and not too worried about fixing the problems of rural Ireland or of people in general.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Ignoring Natural Flood Defences: Smart and Green Economy My Arse!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    + there's a mountain of ignorance and indifference to the needs of rural Ireland in this Govt. They're urban disposed and not too worried about fixing the problems of rural Ireland or of people in general.
    I'm not as pessimistic as you about prospects for better management.

    After all, it can't get much worse.

    There is tree-planting and tree planting. Uniform sitka spruce, with no field breaks / barriers, and with regular clear felling, may well be a problem - I just don't know. But there is plenty of good research to rely on.

    As for rural Ireland - the spinners have decided that it doesn't carry General Election results any more.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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