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Thread: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

  1. #421
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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    you mean the same system implemented by Tito in Yugoslavia that fell apart and ended up eating up its own?
    Yes, because it was a Stalinist dictatorship, and moreover one that had gone the China style marketization route, summoning up lost national antagonism due to economic competition between the different provinces. One more proof that you can't build socialism in one country.

    But while it lasted, national antagonism were genuinely transcended, lots of intermarriage etc. The people of Yugoslavia for some 30-40 years thought of themselves as Yugoslavs, not Serbs or Croats or Bosnians (not so much the non-Slavic Albanians, who even under Tito were somewhat mistreated).

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Yes, because it was a Stalinist dictatorship, and moreover one that had gone the China style marketization route, summoning up lost national antagonism due to economic competition between the different provinces. One more proof that you can't build socialism in one country.

    But while it lasted, national antagonism were genuinely transcended, lots of intermarriage etc. The people of Yugoslavia for some 30-40 years thought of themselves as Yugoslavs, not Serbs or Croats or Bosnians (not so much the non-Slavic Albanians, who even under Tito were somewhat mistreated).

    -AMH-
    That's because they were forced against their will to do it, and much blood was spilled when they became free of that burden. Hardily ideal. If I said I'd like to force you to become a capitalist, how would you feel about that?
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    That's because they were forced against their will to do it, and much blood was spilled when they became free of that burden. Hardily ideal. If I said I'd like to force you to become a capitalist, how would you feel about that?
    Incorrect. Not that Tito would necessary have opposed forcing people against their will to stop being nationalists and love one another, but even a Tito or a Stalin could not accomplish that miracle.

    National antagonisms broke down because Tito led a successful guerilla struggle against the hated Nazi occupiers who killed literally millions of people in Yugoslavia, uniting Serbs, Croats and Bosnians in common struggle side by side against a common oppressor, the Nazis. Whereas the nationalist leaders of the Croats and the Bosnians and occasionally even the Serbs, the group who the Nazis treated the worst, all collaborated with the Nazis vs. the anti-fascist guerillas. And the Serbian royalist group that British intelligence created often sided with the Nazis vs. Tito as Churchill's attitude was that Tito was a bigger long term obstacle to British domination of the Balkans than Hitler or Mussolini (and from his POV, he was right).

    But Tito was a loyal Stalinist during all this, and when he broke with Stalin (or rather Stalin broke with him), he simply decided that Yugoslavia not the USSR was the only practical socialism on planet earth, and started playing footsie with the US vs. the Soviet Union as far back as the Korean War, and then started marketizing China-style, with tragic consequences.

    And, as Tito's prestige with the population was the main thing holding it all together, "socialist" Yugoslavia collapsed after he died.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Incorrect. Not that Tito would necessary have opposed forcing people against their will to stop being nationalists and love one another, but even a Tito or a Stalin could not accomplish that miracle.

    National antagonisms broke down because Tito led a successful guerilla struggle against the hated Nazi occupiers who killed literally millions of people in Yugoslavia, uniting Serbs, Croats and Bosnians in common struggle side by side against a common oppressor, the Nazis. Whereas the nationalist leaders of the Croats and the Bosnians and occasionally even the Serbs, the group who the Nazis treated the worst, all collaborated with the Nazis vs. the anti-fascist guerillas. And the Serbian royalist group that British intelligence created often sided with the Nazis vs. Tito as Churchill's attitude was that Tito was a bigger long term obstacle to British domination of the Balkans than Hitler or Mussolini (and from his POV, he was right).

    But Tito was a loyal Stalinist during all this, and when he broke with Stalin (or rather Stalin broke with him), he simply decided that Yugoslavia not the USSR was the only practical socialism on planet earth, and started playing footsie with the US vs. the Soviet Union as far back as the Korean War, and then started marketizing China-style, with tragic consequences.

    And, as Tito's prestige with the population was the main thing holding it all together, "socialist" Yugoslavia collapsed after he died.

    -AMH-
    All well and good and correct, I accept you can't make people think something they don't want to think, (I wasn't suggesting that), but in the end you concede my point, Tito by virtue of his prestige forced it. That's what dictators who remain in office for 30 years until age 87 do. When he died no-one was able to fill the void, hence the bloodbath.
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    All well and good and correct, I accept you can't make people think something they don't want to think, (I wasn't suggesting that), but in the end you concede my point, Tito by virtue of his prestige forced it. That's what dictators who remain in office for 30 years until age 87 do. When he died no-one was able to fill the void, hence the bloodbath.
    True enough. That's why, unlike Sam, I look to Trotsky not Stalin. Communism only works in the long run if you have democratic rule of the working class. Like it says in the second verse of the Internationale,

    "We want no condescending saviors
    To rule us from their judgement hall
    We workers ask not for their favors
    Let us consult for all."

    A bureaucracy, no matter how well intended (Cuba) or rather less so (Stalin), with Tito somewhere in between, is ultimately problematic. The liberation of the working class can only be done by the working class, not by a peasant guerilla movement in the hills or ex-proletarian bureaucrats in Moscow.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    True enough. That's why, unlike Sam, I look to Trotsky not Stalin. Communism only works in the long run if you have democratic rule of the working class. Like it says in the second verse of the Internationale,

    "We want no condescending saviors
    To rule us from their judgement hall
    We workers ask not for their favors
    Let us consult for all."

    A bureaucracy, no matter how well intended (Cuba) or rather less so (Stalin), with Tito somewhere in between, is ultimately problematic. The liberation of the working class can only be done by the working class, not by a peasant guerilla movement in the hills or ex-proletarian bureaucrats in Moscow.

    -AMH-
    ok very well

    let's say we would agree to the basics of what you say above

    what happens when you realize you no longer have a 'working class'

    or better .. try to define this working class that you theorize about?

    who are this people in modern times, how much money do they make a year, and what do they do for a living? (look around you and give me an example or two)

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    ok very well

    let's say we would agree to the basics of what you say above

    what happens when you realize you no longer have a 'working class'

    or better .. try to define this working class that you theorize about?

    who are this people in modern times, how much money do they make a year, and what do they do for a living? (look around you and give me an example or two)
    You don't get out much do you?

    All those little people not in your social circle, who maintain the subways and conduct the subway cars, collect the garbage, the maids at the hotels you stay in, the farmworkers who produce the food you eat, the small American army of fast food workers currently demonstrating for a higher minimum wage, the Walmart army, the robotized slaves on rollerskates in the Amazon warehouses, the workers who produce the car you drive in if you drive, the truckdrivers and longshoremen and flight attendants and airplane mechanics, etc. etc. The working class.

    What with automation and factories exported overseas for cheap labor, they are no longer the overwhelming majority of the American population, but still the majority if you include white collar workers too. Worldwide, what with the steady decline of the peasantry, there is a larger percentage of the population meeting classic Marxist definitions as members of the working class than ever before in human history. Granted that there are more and more of them in places like China, India and Mexico and somewhat fewer in America and some European countries, but so what.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    You don't get out much do you?
    no i dont get out much, that's true, and when i do, i either rent a car or ride a cab ..

    All those little people not in your social circle, who maintain the subways and conduct the subway cars, collect the garbage, the maids at the hotels you stay in, the farmworkers who produce the food you eat, the small American army of fast food workers currently demonstrating for a higher minimum wage, the Walmart army, the robotized slaves on rollerskates in the Amazon warehouses, the workers who produce the car you drive in if you drive, the truckdrivers and longshoremen and flight attendants and airplane mechanics, etc. etc. The working class.
    I dont consider anyone in my social circle to be little

    the crew that maintains subways (in NY or in any other city in the world) is quite small, most of it is automated

    garbage collectors - i dont have crew numbers on this for my city but i can check, guess tis a small crew as well

    the maids of the hotels you stay in - in the hotel i used in NYC, very small and homey 50 room brick house, they had a crew of maybe 5 people, so i guess you can go w 10% of the total number of rooms available

    Hotel service - about 5 million hotel rooms in the US ~ 0.5M workers?

    farmworkers .. i will find/drop here a very interesting article i just read in the numbers of farm workers, although yes you need some

    fast food workers - about 4 million

    Walmart army - 2.3M associates all over the world

    Total number of Amazon employees - 230,000

    Producing cars is mostly robotic

    truck drivers - 1.8M (likely to disappear once you get self driving cars)


    From Wiki: According to the class model by Dennis Gilbert, the working class comprises those between the 25th and 55th percentile of society. Those in the working class are commonly employed in clerical, retail sales, and low-skill manual labor occupations. Low-level white-collar workers are included in this class.

    Now if you do a thorough analysis and add all those numbers up, do they add to the (conservative) 25% of society?

    if they do, how do you organize these people under 'one flag'?



    What with automation and factories exported overseas for cheap labor, they are no longer the overwhelming majority of the American population, but still the majority if you include white collar workers too. Worldwide, what with the steady decline of the peasantry, there is a larger percentage of the population meeting classic Marxist definitions as members of the working class than ever before in human history. Granted that there are more and more of them in places like China, India and Mexico and somewhat fewer in America and some European countries, but so what.

    -AMH-
    ok want to flush out that thought a little more? especially the "Automation and its impact on numbers of classic Marxist working class in developed countries"
    (for the sake of argument let's define the US as a developed country)

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    no i dont get out much, that's true, and when i do, i either rent a car or ride a cab ..



    I dont consider anyone in my social circle to be little

    the crew that maintains subways (in NY or in any other city in the world) is quite small, most of it is automated

    garbage collectors - i dont have crew numbers on this for my city but i can check, guess tis a small crew as well

    the maids of the hotels you stay in - in the hotel i used in NYC, very small and homey 50 room brick house, they had a crew of maybe 5 people, so i guess you can go w 10% of the total number of rooms available

    Hotel service - about 5 million hotel rooms in the US ~ 0.5M workers?

    farmworkers .. i will find/drop here a very interesting article i just read in the numbers of farm workers, although yes you need some

    fast food workers - about 4 million

    Walmart army - 2.3M associates all over the world

    Total number of Amazon employees - 230,000

    Producing cars is mostly robotic

    truck drivers - 1.8M (likely to disappear once you get self driving cars)


    From Wiki: According to the class model by Dennis Gilbert, the working class comprises those between the 25th and 55th percentile of society. Those in the working class are commonly employed in clerical, retail sales, and low-skill manual labor occupations. Low-level white-collar workers are included in this class.

    Now if you do a thorough analysis and add all those numbers up, do they add to the (conservative) 25% of society?

    if they do, how do you organize these people under 'one flag'?





    ok want to flush out that thought a little more? especially the "Automation and its impact on numbers of classic Marxist working class in developed countries"
    (for the sake of argument let's define the US as a developed country)
    For models I'll take Marx over Gilbert. If you measure by percentiles, you are not measuring who works for a living for somebody else, but income levels, apples and oranges if you think about it.

    But if you think those between 25% and 55% income level wise (and why leave out all those minimum wage people way below 25%) are only 25% of American society, you truly don't get out much. Just try watching the talking heads on TV cable news programs, who, despite the bubble they live in, are at least aware of the huge increase in income inequality lately in America, which is how they, quite correctly, explain the rise of Sanders and Trump.

    What do you think all those people automated out of their factory jobs over the last half century are doing to make a living? Very few have moved up into higher levels, and though quite a few are homeless, surviving by petty crime, or are otherwise out the proletariat into the lumpenproletariat, the great majority still are surviving by working for a living at jobs paying a lot less than they used to. The official unemployment rate grossly underestimates, but that it is 4% does mean something.

    How to organize them? Obvious. By unionizing them. Unions are vastly weaker than they used to be, but opinion polls always reveal that the vast army of non-union workers in America are almost as pro-union as the remaining unionized workers. They would love to join unions at their workplaces, but due to the craven subservience and incompetence of the current breed of labor leaders, whose only real energy gets applied to electing Democrats, they can't.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    For models I'll take Marx over Gilbert. If you measure by percentiles, you are not measuring who works for a living for somebody else, but income levels, apples and oranges if you think about it.

    But if you think those between 25% and 55% income level wise (and why leave out all those minimum wage people way below 25%) are only 25% of American society, you truly don't get out much.
    in a tete-a-tete like this try to avoid statements such as what you assume i truly don't get

    i am walking you down a path

    the path of thinking what to do, or how to come up with a formula to address the fact that Marxism has simply lost 'critical mass' due to Progress (if you want to call it Progress)

    these days if you want to think about Effective Policy that will speak to a significant % of Hearts, Minds and Pocket Books on the Left you need to do better than spewing the old Marxist spiel to whomever has the patience to sit through it.

    What do you think all those people automated out of their factory jobs over the last half century are doing to make a living? Very few have moved up into higher levels, and though quite a few are homeless, surviving by petty crime, or are otherwise out the proletariat into the lumpenproletariat, the great majority still are surviving by working for a living at jobs paying a lot less than they used to.
    they live a true drama .. hence society has accepted social policies that would have been unacceptable only 100 years ago, like aggressive use of birth control and abortion. We simply do not need as many human beings as we used to ..

    The current folks in the situation you describe above will be helped by their families, grandparents in distress will serve as examples to the young ones as to what business to avoid, hence we still protect the essential economic unit that is The Family... knowledge and experiences are still getting passed down to the next generation..That is what is important ..our lives on this Planet are temporary although many people do not understand the End will come for them too.

    How to organize them? Obvious. By unionizing them. Unions are vastly weaker than they used to be, but opinion polls always reveal that the vast army of non-union workers in America are almost as pro-union as the remaining unionized workers. They would love to join unions at their workplaces, but due to the craven subservience and incompetence of the current breed of labor leaders, whose only real energy gets applied to electing Democrats, they can't.

    -AMH-
    How will you incentive people to join Unions, since this is the bottle neck in your plan for turning the world into a much better place and to resolving the Israel:Palestine conundrum ?

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    in a tete-a-tete like this try to avoid statements such as what you assume i truly don't get

    i am walking you down a path

    the path of thinking what to do, or how to come up with a formula to address the fact that Marxism has simply lost 'critical mass' due to Progress (if you want to call it Progress)

    these days if you want to think about Effective Policy that will speak to a significant % of Hearts, Minds and Pocket Books on the Left you need to do better than spewing the old Marxist spiel to whomever has the patience to sit through it.
    Far from it. Just why do you think so many people (you included actually) voted for Sanders and even Trump? Some of them, like yourself, because they thought the American government needed more effective policies, but mostly because the majority of Americans think something is basically wrong here in America, and we need drastic changes. What those changes are, only a very few of us, the Marxists, have any workable notion of what kind of drastic changes could be done that would work.

    You do know that according to Gallup polls, something like 40% of Americans think that socialism is a better idea than capitalism? Of course, most have no clear notion of just what socialism is, but still...

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    they live a true drama .. hence society has accepted social policies that would have been unacceptable only 100 years ago, like aggressive use of birth control and abortion. We simply do not need as many human beings as we used to ..

    The current folks in the situation you describe above will be helped by their families, grandparents in distress will serve as examples to the young ones as to what business to avoid, hence we still protect the essential economic unit that is The Family... knowledge and experiences are still getting passed down to the next generation..That is what is important ..our lives on this Planet are temporary although many people do not understand the End will come for them too.
    The family is a disintegrating thing in America, just look at the divorce rates. How many children are in single parent families? And increasingly the children can't afford to help the elderly, indeed the phenomenon of broke children being helped by grandparents from a better off generation is more and more universal.

    In the long run the disintegration of the family, oppressive to women and children, is a good thing, but only if better forms arise to replace it.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post

    How will you incentive people to join Unions, since this is the bottle neck in your plan for turning the world into a much better place and to resolving the Israel:Palestine conundrum ?
    Incentivizing people to join unions is the easiest part of the problem, nonunion workers are desperate to join unions but they can't, as the surviving unions spend all their resources on electing Democrats instead of organizing the unorganized. Whenever unions put in serious organizing efforts, they get strong backing, even in such unlikely and hard to unionize parts of the workforce as fast food workers, who have been militantly demonstrating for higher minimum wage laws.

    What's the hard part? Firstly, that the government, whether Republican or Democratic, always sides with the employers during strikes, and sends out the cops when strikers start knocking heads on picket lines. Labor laws in America are quite repressive by world standards, and there are surprising numbers of strikers in jail.

    And secondly and more importantly, the current union leaders, in defensive mode, who prefer trying to cooperate with employers and allegedly pro-labor Democrats to using the tried and true methods of American labor struggle of years past, picket lines nobody allowed to cross, factory occupations, mass picketing etc.

    That would require being willing to go up against the state, but given the boiling atmosphere of discontent in America, especially among the minority communities that labor unions are only lately realizing are their best allies, truly militant labor actions on behalf of not just themselves but all the oppressed as well, would set off explosions that the increasingly hated cops would have a lot more trouble suppressing than black community rebellions like in Ferguson, Baltimore or Charlotte.

    The first step would be to toss all cop so called "unions" out of the labor movement.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins


    Well done Jeremy Corbyn, for being the least shrill person in politics

    Unlike everyone else, especially his own supporters, he simply does not do Project Fear

    Hugo Rifkind
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/...n-in-politics/
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    And so it came to pass....

    Corbyn's speech at Glastonbury, ending with Percy Bysshe Shelley's words "rise like lions after slumber in unvanquishable number"

    https://www.facebook.com/18518065485...0917156614858/
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    And so it came to pass....

    Corbyn's speech at Glastonbury, ending with Percy Bysshe Shelley's words "rise like lions after slumber in unvanquishable number"

    https://www.facebook.com/18518065485...0917156614858/
    Getting back to the original thread title, Corbyn's success has come at the price of innumerable concessions to the Blairites who want to turn the Labour Party into a Brit edition of the Democratic Party, Clinton wing, on the platform and everything else. And the biggest concession has been not doing what the new Labour rank and file want, namely starting the purge process through deselection of the Blairites.

    Without that, in the long run Corbyn's electoral successes won't mean anything from the standpoint of the working class.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: UK Labour leadership contest - Corbyn supporter threatens 'purge' of Blairites if candidate wins

    The speech reveals clearly enough Corbyn's largest blind spot - immigration. He has no understanding of or sympathy with the native working class who have been dis-impowered by globalisation.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

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