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Thread: Danish terror attacks.

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Danish terror attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    no not me i am not going anywhere

    i was reinforcing a discussion i had w Morticia and others in the antisemitism thread....the end result is another victory handed to Netanyahu

    very relevant since we have 2 people dead and one of them is yet again another jew.




    we could debate ... or not ... let me drop here the real reason for the killings.... (by a man that knows best, himself a former brainwashed 'freedom fighter').

    --
    # Maajid Nawaz:

    This pathological jihadist obsession with "the Jooz" in Europe isn't born from lack of religiously justified sanction.
    Here's an example of a piece of scripture that is problematic:

    Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

    Saying attributed to the Prophet Muhammad in the Sahih of al-Bukhari.

    This, among many others, is a problematic religious text. With texts such as this, there exists juristic (أصولي) tools of reconciliation of scriptural conflict (جمع), examination of authenticity (تحقيق), prioritising moral aims (مقاصد) over legal means (وسائل), abrogation (نسخ), restriction (تقييد), specificity (تخصيص), blocking harm (سد الذرائع), classification as informative not prescriptive (أدلة خبرية ليست أدلة شرعية) and many other such juristic instruments.

    Islamic clerics should not only accept openly the need to reform the way Islam is read today, and the way its tradition is seen to be finalised after the medieval period without further scrutiny - but they must also actively encourage such reform. The doors of re-interpretation (اجتهاد) must remain open.

    #Maajid Nawaz.


    Then there's these very violent passages:

    "I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh"

    You must annihilate all the peoples they find in the cities

    God commands that he take away the livestock and the loot, while altogether exterminating the inhabitants, and he duly does this

    When he defeats and captures five kings, he murders his prisoners of war, either by hanging or crucifixion.

    God orders the complete extermination of tribes with the deliberate goal of ending their genetic lines.

    There are repeated acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing, but they do so under direct divine command. According to one, God orders the killing of every man, woman, and child, and even the wiping out their livestock ,,, but some of the animals are not slaughtered, and this earns a scolding but the genocidal maniac repents, and symbolises his regrets by dismembering the captured enemy king.
    Oh hold on, these are from the Bible.................... LINK
    Give me a misty day, pearly gray, silver, silky faced, wide-awake crescent-shaped smile

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Danish terror attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew49 View Post
    Then there's these very violent passages:

    Oh hold on, these are from the Bible.................... LINK
    Secular in my case, i dont subscribe to any of the 'sacred' books

    Maajid Nawaz is talking his people into thinking of new ways of reforming/re-interpreting what they read in the Koran

    He is telling them "it's not to be taken literally" ...

    and comments such as yours dont help his cause much i would say (given that it aint christians slaughtering other human beings w a butcher knife and posting it in you tube)

    i guess...

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Danish terror attacks.

    @ Andrew I was trying to say this but found a much better source:

    Bernard Haykel, the foremost secular authority on the Islamic State’s ideology, believes the group is trying to re-create the earliest days of Islam and is faithfully reproducing its norms of war. “There is an assiduous, obsessive seriousness” about the group’s dedication to the text of the Koran, he says.


    I will drop a full piece on ISIS when i am done reading it later ... now must go take care of biz.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Danish terror attacks.

    @Andrew and all,

    Please read:

    Centuries have passed since the wars of religion ceased in Europe, and since men stopped dying in large numbers because of arcane theological disputes. Hence, perhaps, the incredulity and denial with which Westerners have greeted news of the theology and practices of the Islamic State. Many refuse to believe that this group is as devout as it claims to be, or as backward-looking or apocalyptic as its actions and statements suggest.

    Their skepticism is comprehensible. In the past, Westerners who accused Muslims of blindly following ancient scriptures came to deserved grief from academics—notably the late Edward Said—who pointed out that calling Muslims “ancient” was usually just another way to denigrate them. Look instead, these scholars urged, to the conditions in which these ideologies arose—the bad governance, the shifting social mores, the humiliation of living in lands valued only for their oil.

    Without acknowledgment of these factors, no explanation of the rise of the Islamic State could be complete. But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesn’t matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes he’s doing so for religious reasons.

    Many mainstream Muslim organizations have gone so far as to say the Islamic State is, in fact, un-Islamic. It is, of course, reassuring to know that the vast majority of Muslims have zero interest in replacing Hollywood movies with public executions as evening entertainment. But Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.” Many denials of the Islamic State’s religious nature, he said, are rooted in an “interfaith-Christian-nonsense tradition.”

    According to Haykel, the ranks of the Islamic State are deeply infused with religious vigor. Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. “Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,” Haykel said. “They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.” He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.”

    All Muslims acknowledge that Muhammad’s earliest conquests were not tidy affairs, and that the laws of war passed down in the Koran and in the narrations of the Prophet’s rule were calibrated to fit a turbulent and violent time. In Haykel’s estimation, the fighters of the Islamic State are authentic throwbacks to early Islam and are faithfully reproducing its norms of war. This behavior includes a number of practices that modern Muslims tend to prefer not to acknowledge as integral to their sacred texts. “Slavery, crucifixion, and beheadings are not something that freakish [jihadists] are cherry-picking from the medieval tradition,” Haykel said. Islamic State fighters “are smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and are bringing it wholesale into the present day.”

    in What ISIS Really Wants @ The Atlantic Feb 17th, 2015

    (if you have the time i suggest reading the entire text. I promise you WILL learn something new)

    ---\---

    Now back to our not so relevant tete-a-tete

    You drink your koolaid and i drink mine

    To me the take-home-msg of text above is this

    “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.”
    .
    Last edited by random new yorker; 18-02-2015 at 04:06 AM.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Danish terror attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post

    “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.”
    .
    I think it was the West [USA/UK] who created the monster that is ''ISIS'' They created the conditions for it's birth and evolution. Post invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan created the vacuum for extreme Islam to fill.[run that past Haykel]

    Quote...Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and we afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility. When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their sinful acts seem alluring to them.
    —Quran
    Happiness is an inside job.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Danish terror attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    I think it was the West [USA/UK] who created the monster that is ''ISIS'' They created the conditions for it's birth and evolution. Post invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan created the vacuum for extreme Islam to fill.[run that past Haykel]

    Quote...Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and we afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility. When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their sinful acts seem alluring to them.
    —Quran
    of course you think US/UK 'created' ISIS

    now try to read this passage:

    In the past, Westerners who accused Muslims of blindly following ancient scriptures came to deserved grief from academics—notably the late Edward Said—who pointed out that calling Muslims “ancient” was usually just another way to denigrate them. Look instead, these scholars urged, to the conditions in which these ideologies arose—the bad governance, the shifting social mores, the humiliation of living in lands valued only for their oil.

    Without acknowledgment of these factors, no explanation of the rise of the Islamic State could be complete. But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesn’t matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes he’s doing so for religious reasons.

    in What ISIS really wants.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Danish terror attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    of course you think US/UK 'created' ISIS

    now try to read this passage:

    In the past, Westerners who accused Muslims of blindly following ancient scriptures came to deserved grief from academics—notably the late Edward Said—who pointed out that calling Muslims “ancient” was usually just another way to denigrate them. Look instead, these scholars urged, to the conditions in which these ideologies arose—the bad governance, the shifting social mores, the humiliation of living in lands valued only for their oil.

    Without acknowledgment of these factors, no explanation of the rise of the Islamic State could be complete. But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesn’t matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes he’s doing so for religious reasons.
    I think it is the USA's use and abuse of Muslims in their proxy war with Russia in Afghanistan that should be considered and acknowledged as a contributing factor in the whole chain of events that has brought about the status quo.

    Haykel can't just ''cherry pick'' the history to form conclusions.
    What was the West's strategy to ''bad governance?'' Regime change? How did they go about that? It's rich for the West to dictate what is morally acceptable when they slaughtered upwards of a million innocent men, women and children in a country ruled by a man who had nothing to do with 9/11 and certainly did'nt have ''weapons of mass destruction.''

    In the aftermath of that, how many Muslims opened and re-interpreted the Holy Quran?

    Yes, of course i believe the West created a monster. I could pin point much of this tragedy on humanity to one particular red neck individual in the USA and his side kick weasel in the UK.

    Obama's speech in Egypt in 2009 was a display of humility many years too late. Had there been real equality in the USA [land of the free and home of the brave] there'd long ago have been a native Indian president of the likes of Tecumseh and the world would be a better place today.
    Happiness is an inside job.

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