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Thread: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

  1. #3721
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Today was a 24 hour general strike in Greece. There were marches in most cities against the latest round of cuts - pensions slashed again and tax free allowances cut. In exchange Syriza say they will be providing rent supports.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #3722
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    General strikes are one thing, but where is the political resistance to the government? Will Greeks ever trust any political movement again after Tsipras?

  3. #3723
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbouvet View Post
    General strikes are one thing, but where is the political resistance to the government? Will Greeks ever trust any political movement again after Tsipras?
    The Greek electorate did not see any better option. You might as well say why no protests against the prom notes in Ireland.
    Things are active in Greece as much as in Ireland but not at the point of withdrawal from the Euro and social revolution.
    People are also worn down by it all.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #3724
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    There were other options in the last Greek election but the voters ignored them.

    Syriza were exposed as bluffers at the crucial moment, and Merkel knew they were.

    I am rapidly losing sympathy for the Greeks. They want to stay in the Euro without being prepared to take the consequences of doing so. They really need to make up their minds now.

  5. #3725
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbouvet View Post
    There were other options in the last Greek election but the voters ignored them.

    Syriza were exposed as bluffers at the crucial moment, and Merkel knew they were.

    I am rapidly losing sympathy for the Greeks. They want to stay in the Euro without being prepared to take the consequences of doing so. They really need to make up their minds now.
    Whether Greeks really want to stay in the Euro if that means, as it does, accepting all EU diktats is very questionable. What is clear is that SYRIZA desperately wants to stay in the EU at any price, as of course all the other mainstream parties do too.

    Other options? Not really. The Greek voters got the opportunity to vote against accepting the EU diktats, voted against--and then were sold out by Syriza. But then who could they vote against at the following election?

    You have that left split from Syria, which went nowhere because everyone knew that they'd split out *after* they'd voted to accept the EU diktat, despite the voters' rejection of the referendum. It was pretty clear that the only reason they left Syriza was that Syriza decided to purge its parliamentary representation of troublemaking lefties, so if they wanted to keep their seats in parliament they had to leave. Which of course did not work.

    And then you had the KKE, the most left serious party in Greece, which called that general strike, and which could have been the alternative-except that they totally disgraced themselves by calling for abstaining in the referendum!

    Leaving only microparties, the largest of which, ANTARSYA, is pretty obviously just a pressure group trying to push either SYRIZA itself or maybe the SYRIZA splitoff to the left. On most issues less militant than the far far larger and more influential KKE, so why would anyone bother.

    The road to a real alternative would be a left wing of the KKE, the historic party of the Greek working class, getting disgusted with the ultimately reformist abstentionism of the KKE, abandoning the KKE and its Stalinist heritage and trying to form a genuinely revolutionary party of the Greek working class. Such a party, a genuine alternative, could have a very bright future.

    -AMH-

  6. #3726
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    A party that is unequivocally in favour of leaving the Euro could put their alternative to the people. It would then be up to them to decide.

  7. #3727
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbouvet View Post
    A party that is unequivocally in favour of leaving the Euro could put their alternative to the people. It would then be up to them to decide.
    Outside a perspective of socialist revolution and replacing the EU with a "United Socialist States of Europe" or some such, leaving the Euro is simply a desperation measure, a good idea in and of itself but not a solution to Greece's problems.

    The real question is whether Greeks want to defy the EU, tell the EU to get stuffed, and if that means Greece gets kicked out of the EU, fine. The Greeks already had that referendum, and that is how they voted. If you had it all over again, at this point the results would almost certainly be the same, if anything the anti-EU majority would swell. So no need for another referendum.

    A political party whose only plank is leaving the EU would not be successful, as it would have to answer the question "then what" to be taken seriously. Greece is too small and weak a country for "socialism in one country" to work even as well as in the USSR, to say nothing of capitalism in one country kicked out of the world market by revenge-minded Eurocrats. Either would be a lesser evil compared to what the EU is doing to Greece now, but that's hardly a political stance that generates hope for the future.

    -AMH-

  8. #3728
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Leaving the Euro (and maybe the EU) would be a start. Then a free Greek people could debate freely about what they want next.

  9. #3729
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbouvet View Post
    Leaving the Euro (and maybe the EU) would be a start. Then a free Greek people could debate freely about what they want next.
    Agreed.

    -AMH-

  10. #3730
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbouvet View Post
    There were other options in the last Greek election but the voters ignored them.

    Syriza were exposed as bluffers at the crucial moment, and Merkel knew they were.

    I am rapidly losing sympathy for the Greeks. They want to stay in the Euro without being prepared to take the consequences of doing so. They really need to make up their minds now.
    Yep. Inclined to agree with this.
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  11. #3731
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Interview with Paok Gate 4 supporter.

    https://avtonom.org/en/news/intervie...k-thessaloniki

    Leaving the EU and Euro in itself solves nothing. The question is how can Greece and the rest of the world have a better future.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #3732
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    "Leaving the EU and Euro in itself solves nothing. The question is how can Greece and the rest of the world have a better future."

    What???

    We all want a better future. The question is what measures will lead to it, both on the short and long term. There is no point in refusing to take decisions here and now because we all want a better future.

    In the short term, leaving the Euro would be a real step forward.

  13. #3733
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbouvet View Post
    "Leaving the EU and Euro in itself solves nothing. The question is how can Greece and the rest of the world have a better future."

    What???

    We all want a better future. The question is what measures will lead to it, both on the short and long term. There is no point in refusing to take decisions here and now because we all want a better future.

    In the short term, leaving the Euro would be a real step forward.
    Definitely.

    Independence of colonies from imperial overlords also solves nothing, as the history of postcolonial Africa clearly demonstrates. Does that mean the colonies should not have broken free?

    Getting Greece out from the stranglehold of the EU is the precondition to doing anything at all to solve Greece's problems. It would not solve anything all by itself, but it is the necessary first step.

    -AMH-

  14. #3734
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Former Greek Prime Minister 'seriously hurt' in bomb attack


    http://www.thejournal.ie/former-gree...08778-May2017/

  15. #3735
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    Default Re: Greece 2015, swan song or a new beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skrimshander View Post
    Former Greek Prime Minister 'seriously hurt' in bomb attack


    http://www.thejournal.ie/former-gree...08778-May2017/
    Strategy of tension ?


    Things are very, very tense in Greece. The troops and riot cops are wired/trigger happy and on the streets often, and often for no apparent reason.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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