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Thread: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Deaths

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Hi there Notasellout,

    I know a, 'wee bit'. The roof did not kill the two firemen. Call vetting is real, as explained, and is still ongoing. Calls are now gooing into Tara St. and sometimes Tara St. call one of the management in Bray instead of responding. No proof in paper and I can not say how I know. I must be carefull not to put in too much about the Little Bray Disaster. As stated earlier I did not meet Mark and Brian but I have offered assistance to their families.
    Brian and I were fighting against the same people, from different directions. Over the next couple of evenings I will start in 1973 and show you as much as I can.

    kind regards,

    Phoenix.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Yes PFPSL, this is very interesting and I hope it will be a useful thread, but I take your point that it is a public forum and we should remember not to say anything here that we wouldn't mind standing over in person.

    Just to state the ABCs : Is this the situation ? When a house is built it must be designed and constructed in compliance with Part B of the Building Regulations that cover fire safety. A fire cert isn't needed. The architect signs a certificate of compliance with the Building Regulations.

    Local Authorities can inspect but they don't usually, unless there is a complaint?

    Is that correct? And for non-residential and apartment blocks a Fire Certificate is required before building starts. The building may be checked by the Fire Officer when its finished.

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Publication...ad,1719,en.pdf

    Technical Guidance Documents - Department of the Environment, Heritage & Local Government

    The Regulations cover fire resistance, alarms and escape...?

    On call vetting -

    When someone makes a fire call, the phone call is answered by a central call centre who then phone the fire station in the area of the fire?

    Up to a couple of years ago, the calls went straight to the fire station, or to the council offices to an admin person, or fire officer?

    Who would do the call vetting and how would they judge whether or not to send the fire service?

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PFPSL
    Hi there Notasellout,

    I know a, 'wee bit'. The roof did not kill the two firemen. Call vetting is real, as explained, and is still ongoing. Calls are now gooing into Tara St. and sometimes Tara St. call one of the management in Bray instead of responding. No proof in paper and I can not say how I know. I must be carefull not to put in too much about the Little Bray Disaster. As stated earlier I did not meet Mark and Brian but I have offered assistance to their families.
    Brian and I were fighting against the same people, from different directions. Over the next couple of evenings I will start in 1973 and show you as much as I can.

    kind regards,

    Phoenix.





    notasellout said -


    i would appreciate if you would. i would love to be updated on it, because its an issue taken to lightly by everyone, especially politicians. the day of the bray fire im sure from what i heard, there was alot of covering up done. as i said earlyer in this thread people from my party want it buried.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Leave this one with me for a mo. Hard to answer due to ongoing investigations. Perhaps murphyforbray could explain this in a PC manner?

    Phoenix FPSL.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    The centralised call answering system in Tara Street only directly alerts firefighters for house fires. All other calls are refered to the Senior Duty Officer in the relevant area. As these people in Bray are the subject of Garda investigations and have their files sitting on the DPP's desk while we blog, I am unwilling to discuss them much more. However when the call is received by them they decide whether or not to respond. These same people receive bonuses for keeping their budgets down also. The time that elapses between the call being received and activation of the alerters does not have to be recorded on the official statistics. In other words if the Senior Duty Officer wait before activating the alerter and subsequently activates as the situation gets worse, the call out time figure as supplied to DOE will only be form time of activation and not from time of first call.

    To quote the Key performance indicators document as issued by DOE to all local authorities on Dec. 20th 2007

    Response time is to be calculated as follows

    Full Time
    From time of call being received from member of public to first arrival of tender at scene

    Retained
    From time of activation of alerters to first arrival of tender at scene.

    The CFO's decision is law. I have confirmed from Minister John Gormley in writing that Fire services are not regulated or policed by DOE but are the sole responsibility of local authorities. The word adequate is used in the FIRE SERVICES ACT 1981 to describe the statutory level of cover required. What the CFO decides is adequate is the final interpretation of the act.

    In Ireland there are more than 30 chief fire officers for a population of 4 million. How many do you think are in New York with a population of 8 million?

    10?


    20?

    50?








    No.


    The answer is................................................ .................................................. ..................................





    1



    Ireland has a chief fire officers association.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Thank you MurphyforBray,

    Good luck and best wishes for next week. I am tied up at the mo but I will get back to this thread early next week. Sorry to all for the delay. I'll have to do a typing course before then!

    Phoenix FPSL.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    notasellout said

    1 -

    surely you speculate!!!! can this be really true, what a regime we live in

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    There were some pms after that, but due to the investigation ongoing, no more posts on that thread.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Dea

    I haven't heard a word about this on the news today. Has anyone else ?

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Dea

    Just found this Fire Services Forum thread that mentions a string of arrests, 3 enquiries and a delay of another year from last November before a final report.

    http://www.irishfireservices.ie/foru...opic=969&st=20

    RTEs report today.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0511/bray.html

    Could this be some accountability at last ?

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Dea

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/c...iz-457343.html

    The person who was arrested was released early this morning without charges - a file will be sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions. Two fire officers died in the fire and the issue is why there was a delay in attending the fire.

    One of the men who died had complained about practices three weeks before he died. There have been serious questions, discussed in this thread, about fire deaths in Ireland generally and in Bray.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Dea

    Update:
    WICKLOW COUNTY Council is facing four charges relating to the deaths of two Bray firemen in 2007, their families were told yesterday.
    Mark O’Shaughnessy (26) and father-of-15 Brian Murray (46) died while fighting a blaze at a disused factory in September 2007. They were killed when the roof of the factory collapsed on them.
    The families have always maintained that the deaths were not the result of an accident, but the consequences of policies pursued by the council.
    Representatives of both families were told by Bray gardaí the Director of Public Prosecutions felt there was sufficient evidence to bring charges against the council, but not against named individuals.
    The main charge is under Section 8 of the Health and Safety Act, 2005, which states that every employer shall ensure “so far as is reasonably practicable, the safety, health and welfare at work of his or her employees”.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...293359329.html

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Dea

    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyJoe McGillycuddy View Post

    Thanks for picking this up PJ. Ireland has a shocking record on fire deaths.

    Mark O’Shaughnessy (26) and father-of-15 Brian Murray (46) died while fighting a blaze at a disused factory in September 2007. They were killed when the roof of the factory collapsed on them.

    The families have always maintained that the deaths were not the result of an accident, but the consequences of policies pursued by the council.

    Representatives of both families were told by Bray gardaí the Director of Public Prosecutions felt there was sufficient evidence to bring charges against the council, but not against named individuals.

    The main charge is under Section 8 of the Health and Safety Act, 2005, which states that every employer shall ensure “so far as is reasonably practicable, the safety, health and welfare at work of his or her employees”.

    Further charges relate to Section 19 of the Act, which covers risk assessment; Section 23, which covers the health and fitness of employees and Section 77, relating to an employer’s duty to give proper instruction to employees.

    If found guilty as a corporate entity, the council faces maximum fines of €12 million, €3 million for each offence.

    Mr O’Shaughnessy’s brother, Eamonn, expressed disappointment that no charges will be brought against individuals.

    “It is not as much as we were hoping for. We were hoping the people that were responsible would let us know what happened.

    “We are still in the same position as we were in over the last 3½ years. We are still waiting to find out what happened.”

    Councillor John Brady, who has been campaigning on their behalf, said it was “shocking” that no charges were brought against any individuals in the council, as there had been repeated warnings about the alleged underfunding of the fire service in Bray.

    “Myself and the family have been consistent in our call for a totally independent inquiry . . . We believe it is clearly the policies that were operated by Wicklow County Council over a number of years which culminated in the episode in Bray in 2007.”
    I'm glad that this is going to Court.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 30-03-2011 at 09:31 PM.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Deaths

    More fire deaths today. It was very evident from RTE news film that the house had bedroom windows that did not comply with building regulations and from which no-one could escape.

    Please check yours.

    Windows with a little top opener will not allow you or your children to get out if there is a fire.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Deaths

    There's to be a trial next year -

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/w...hs-532100.html

    No individual is named, so essentially, the public will pay any fines.

    Wicklow County Council is due to go on trial next year over the deaths of two firefighters.

    Mark O’Shaughnessy and Brian Murray were killed as they tackled a blaze at a disused warehouse on the Lower Dargle Road in Bray on September 26, 2007.

    No charges have been brought against any named individual, but the council faces four counts of breaches of health and safety laws after a joint investigation by the Health and Safety Authority and gardaí.

    The case was mentioned briefly before Dublin’s Circuit Criminal Court today, where Judge Martin Nolan adjourned it until March 26 when a date for a trial or arraignment will be set.

    Last week the case was transferred from Wicklow courthouse after barristers for the council argued it would be extremely difficult to empanel a jury there that was not affected by publicity about or knowledge of the events, personnel involved or the council itself.

    The families of 26-year-old Mr O’Shaughnessy and father-of-15 Mr Murray, 46, have maintained the men’s deaths were not the result of an accident, but a consequence of council policies.

    Prosecutors claim the council put retained firefighters Mr O’Shaughnessy and Mr Murray at unnecessary risk, failed to provide a back-up crew quickly enough, gave inadequate training, and provided ineffective communication.

    The charge sheet states that – under the Health and Safety Act 2005 – the council failed to discharge its duty to ensure the safety, health and welfare at work of its firefighters employees in Bray.
    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/w...#ixzz1gQ9CGZM6

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