Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 92

Thread: Bray Fire Deaths -Wicklow County Council Official Arrested -Ireland worst in Europe for Fire Deaths

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    notaselloutsaid

    well from what i know and its not much, bray firestation is 100% part time, and we live in a big town. retained i think means they only get paid 5 grand twice a year thats it. What i want to know, as a citizen in bray is the department of the enviroment aware of this so called call vetting and what are they doing about it. also bray being so big and full of nursing homes and big appartment complexs it wont be long again before someone else gets hurt

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Originally Posted by cactusflower
    Where is the nearest fire station then ? Wicklow ?


    notasellout said

    the nearest station is bray, but its not manned by firemen only office staff.
    the firemen have pagers which are set off at any given time and the firemen drop whatever there doin be it work dinner whatever and rush to the station un aided by any special road laws and get kitted out and go

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    I'm wondering why the Farrell, Grants Report was never implemented in the boom. They started up enough quangos that were no use at all.

    Its a bit like Road Safety I suppose: its hard to get it on the political agenda because people think it will never happen to them.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by notasellout
    i agree, but hopefully something will come out of what happened in bray, i know most politicians wont talk about it and just want it to go away, but i believe the familys affected have come together and put someone forward in local elections,to make sure somethings done. i know the party i represent and support just wanted it to go away after a while because they had councillers sitting in wicklow when it happened and MAYBE felt guilty

    THe OD said -

    No, it wont change a thing - it doesnt matter how many people die in situations like this, so long as they are not of sufficient means, they will get little if any satisfaction beyond 'shut up and go away money'.



    Just Batt (brained) O'Keefe on TV here and he typifies Irish politicians when faced with difficult decisions - spineless, brainless, ignorant, gombeenish and downright stupid.
    __________________

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Originally Posted by cactusflower
    I'm wondering why the Farrell, Grants Report was never implemented in the boom. They started up enough quangos that were no use at all.

    Its a bit like Road Safety I suppose: its hard to get it on the political agenda because people think it will never happen to them.



    MurphyforBray said -


    The FGS report was shelved by DICK ROCHE. He obviously knows better than the experts. John Gormless is only interested in clinging to power by his finger tips. I despair when I think of the alternative government that would be formed by the current crop of gob********************es. We need a new party but not an extremeist one. Fortunately for the locals there is a move towards indos but in the next general we could see a move towards the extreme left. The communist policies of Sinn Fein could form part of the next program for government unless a viable alternative is offered. Meanwhile people will continue to die from lack of essential services.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by slx
    Well, despite lots of talk, we have some of the most lax wiring / electrical safety regulations in Europe.

    While most of our installations are good, and the wiring rules are good, there's still a situation where any idiot is allowed to wire a house.

    There are no regular electrical inspections, these are required elsewhere, at the very least each time the house is sold, let or re-let.

    Then we're surprised when houses burn down due to electrical faults !

    It's all light-touch, self-regulation and the usual stupid approach.


    Odie1Kanobe said -

    Wrong they are not required as I own quite a few UK properties and there is NO regulations regarding inspection of the property.

    UK law did change in requiring any electrical work to be carried out by electrician.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Originally Posted by D.Harry
    The link is to a thread on the dangers of tumble-dryers. One of the reasons we use t-ds a lot is because of the damp weather.

    I suppose it was a bit of a leap...for some people...pal.



    D Harry said -

    Friend had that happen and she had left T Dryer on and left house, forgotten something and came back in and it was smoking ready to go into flames, she knocked off power and a small fire broke out easily smothered.

    T Dryers should never be left on in empty house and cleaned regularly......most people have no idea of this.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    notasellout said

    just been researching the whole fire inspection thing in bray, and found the familys affected hired a guy in wicklow ,from the north i think. i am unsure of his name but heard him speak in oldcourt and a friend said he was at a nursing home recently carrying out an inspection. hes an expert in fire proofing i believe, someone out there may know him or who he works for, i think he may be working for the government.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by notasellout
    just been researching the whole fire inspection thing in bray, and found the familys affected hired a guy in wicklow ,from the north i think. i am unsure of his name but heard him speak in oldcourt and a friend said he was at a nursing home recently carrying out an inspection. hes an expert in fire proofing i believe, someone out there may know him or who he works for, i think he may be working for the government.


    PFPSL said -

    Dear Notasellout, if that is your real name,

    I have been following this thread for a couple of days now and I need to addresss a few comments made by yourself.

    'just been researching the whole fire inspection thing in bray,'

    That was quick. I have been working in Fire Safety since 30th' June 1973 and I can not explain the whole fire inspection thing in Bray, as you put it. I would need to see the three reports that are currently being prepared by Garda/HSA and Wicklow County Council. Perhaps you have access to this information?


    'and found the familys affected hired a guy in wicklow ,from the north i think. i am unsure of his name but heard him speak in oldcourt and a friend said he was at a nursing home recently carrying out an inspection. hes an expert in fire proofing i believe, someone out there may know him or who he works for, i think he may be working for the government'

    The Wicklow/North man that you raise in this quote was not hired by the families of the two fallen fire fighters but has spoke about Oldcourt and carried out an inspection in Oldcourt Drive and inspected The Orchard Welfare Home, Bray. He is an expert in Certification, Regulation, Specification, Design, Installation and Accreditation of Passive and Structural Fire Protection. He is not working for the Government and is amazingly good looking.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    notasellout said

    i take it you are this guy,

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Dear Cactusflower,

    Congratulations on your very well presented and informative thread and thank you for raising very important issues. You seem to be searching for some understanding of fire safety/services/regulations etc. Why are so many children dying in house fires in Ireland? Why did two of our best Fire Fighters loose their lives. Why do the Fire Services not have a National Fire Authority? Why was the FGS Report 'shelved', as stated by Minister Dick Roche? Why is call-vetting in operation, etc.............. You have asked enough questions to form the skelton on which to build the body of an answer. The answers will allow you to understand the bigger picture of why our Civil Service and Local/Senior Government must be made accountable and why information must be free flowing. This will take some time so I'll try to do a little work on this reply every night. I shall do an introduction then address the problems raised. Thanks again,

    PFPSL.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    PFPSL said

    1973 to 2004. Problems in Fire Protection of the Built Environment. (1).

    Fire is a complex set of chemical reactions, however we can reduce this to it's smallest common denominators; IGNITION, FUEL and OXYEGEN. We call this the Fire Triangle. Remove any one of these elements and the fire will usually go out.

    The larger the area, the larger the fire, subsequently buildings are sub-divided into smaller compartments to restrict the fire growth. Escape routes are also protected to allow the occupants to safely escape and even allow search and rescue. All adjoining, terrace housing for example must have a compartment/party wall to stop fire spreading across the attic areas. Usually the time limit required would be one hour but obviously the higher buildings, for example, would require more fire resistance. Another case would be say an Intensive Care Unit in a hospital. The patents may require assistance to be evacuated so a greater time limit may be required and other actions may be engaged, one example would be progressive evacuation.

    The structure of the buildings would also have to be protected in order to protect against Premature Collapse.

    Fire protection products are installed to block openings around services in fire walls and floors. Cavity barriers are installed to stop fire spreading through concealed spaces, curtain walls, cavities in walls, floor/floor and perhaps stairwells. Attics are also concealed therefore cavity barriers, if installed, would divert the fire to inside/outside the building where it may then be seen. These products are tested in laboratories.

    The installation of these products must be in accordance with the manufactures instructions and in compliance with the local Building Regulations. In Ireland we use Technical Guidance Document B, (Fire) but two other Acts also relate to our work; 1981 Fire Services Act and 1990 Building Control Act.

    The Planning Permission, offered to new builds, is issued on the grounds that the building will be in compliance with the Building Regulations. The Fire Protection is Certified by the installation company and sometimes underwritten by other Fire Safety companies. The local Chief Fire Officer will inspect the new building and signs it off. The owners of the building are then responsible for the maintenance of the building for the lifetime of the building.

    That all seems pretty straight forward, so now ask yourself the question, why is this not done in Ireland?

    More tomorrow.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    Thanks very much. More questions, I'm afraid - I know that (some?) local authorities don't check if new private houses comply with Building Regs. Are you saying that Fire Certificate compliance isn't checked either ?

    I'm particularly interested in the "standard " local authority house as the majority of fatal fires reported on the news seem to take place in them. Are local authority houses checked for compliance ? When the Councils sell a house to a tenant are they checked?

    I suppose the next stage at which things can go wrong is when replacement windows are installed, or other alterations are done?

    Sorry to be adding more questions. I expect it will all come out in good time.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    We will cover the County Council in more detail further in but I'll address these points now. Since the Stardust Disaster 95% of Fire Protection has been installed in an amateur manner. I call the installers, 'Cowboys'. Their Certificates are nor worth the paper they are written on. These false certs are then underwritten by Cowboy Manufactures or Suppliers or, in some cases, so called Fire Safety Experts. You will see how this pans out later when I will be describing a hospital that I called, 'Potentially Dangerous', in 2002. The building remains open!

    In order to show then extent of the problems I need to show two buildings. The Dublin hospital will show the Private Sector Problems and the other is a house fire in Newtownmountkennedy, Co Wicklow. This terrace house will give you a look at Local Authority non-compliance.

    If replacing windows it would be a good idea to fire proof the void in the cavity walls as more often than not these barriers are non-existant. Fire can travel into cavities and through the buildings.

    You have pointed out the fact that Local Authorities have sold some housing stock and indeed a perfect example of this instance would be Oldcourt Housing Estate in Bray, Co. Wicklow. I have inspected one of these buildings.

    Temp housing was constructed back in the 70s in Oldcourt. Later in the 80s Bray Town Council replaced the temporary buildings with the housing that stands today. I was horrified to find that the old structures are still in place inside the walls of the new buildings. The council removed the metal cladding from the pre-fabs, built a wall front and back and put on a new roof. The old walls were made of an insulation board, (straw dipped in concrete and coated with 15/20mm of Bitumen! This detail remains. Eight people have died in these houses over the years, most of them children, from fire. It is well known that Bitumen aids the rapid progression of fire and the dense black smoke is a killer.

    The gentleman that bought the house that I inspected from Bray Town Council had an engineer inspect the premises prior to purchase. I have seen this so-called engineers report and the interior Bitumen/insulation is not mentioned. The report, from memory, states how good the paintwork and wallpaper was at that time. If this was not so serious it would be funny but it's not funny at all.

    Sub Station Officer, Brian Murray, had repeatedly entered these houses in the fires that occurred and on one occasion the heat was so intense that his helmet visor melted onto his face. I never got to meet Brian but at the same time that I was looking at the numerous problems in construction Brian was looking at a completely different set of problems in the Fire Services, training, equipment, call vetting etc.

    Call Vetting:

    Someone posted a question about call vetting so I'll give you a brief run down on how and why this takes place.
    Call Vetting, (Bray). Call vetting has been going on in Bray for over twenty years. I was a little naive when I first started to look at these problems. I had this mad idea that when someone called the Fire Brigade an alarm bell would be rung and lads would slide down a pole, jump into the fire tender and race off to the fire. Not so. When a call is made to Bray Fire Services the call would be vetted. An example of this happened a couple of weeks prior to the Little Bray Disaster that claimed the lives of Brian and Mark.
    Trinity Biotech called Bray Fire Station after a fire broke out on their premises. The caller was told to try and deal with the fire himself and if it gets any worse to call back. The Garda had also been called and they had to call the Fire Brigade to get them out. When Brian arrived at the scene the Garda went through him for a short cut. Over half an hour had passed since the first call but Brian had only been alerted 10/15 minutes before arrival. He then knew the call had been vetted. Bray Fire Services and Wicklow County Council will tell you that call vetting was not in operation the day the two lads died however call vetting is still taking place today as it has done for 20 years. It seems a little strange that a call to this Pharma building was vetted and not the call to the Little Bray Disaster.
    Another instance of call vetting can be shown in Donegal. I have been informed by the Fire Brigade Union, (FBU), Northern Ireland, of the following. When an emergency call is made near the border the caller will be asked if the Northern Ireland Fire Brigade, (NIFB), has been called. If so Donegal will [U]not[U] send a fire tender. They will not respond because they know NIFB must answer every call! That's how a proper fire service works.
    Both Bray and Donegal must do everything they can to keep down the numbers of call outs. This allows them to keep the retained, (Part Time), fire crews, saving a considerable amount of money compared to full time. I believe more if not all fire services in Southern Ireland engage in call vetting. But why you may ask? The reason is simple.
    The Esplanade Agreement:
    On the 8th' Jan. 2008 the families of the deceased fire fighters held a meeting in the Esplanade Hotel, Bray with; 5 Local TDs, Union Reps from both Full Time and Retained SI Fire Fighters and the head of the Full Time Union, Dublin, (Mr. John Kidd). This man addressed the 5 TDs as follows.

    Mr. John Kidd: I have been told you need three and a half million euros to pay for a full time service in Bray. Where can we find that much money in these times?
    Well in the South of Ireland we have over 30 Chief Fire Officers, how many Chief Fire Officers does NI have?
    The 5 TDs did some thinking and came back with the answer, 6. Liz McManus thought further and said perhaps 8, one for every county and one each perhaps for Derry and Belfast.
    Mr. John Kidd: No, NI has in fact one Chief Fire Officer, the difference between him and the ones we have down here is the NI CFO is accountable for his actions and the ones down here are not!
    The money wasted on our 30 odd CFOs and their staff would pay for a full time service for Bray and probably another few towns as well.
    John has worked in Dublin Fire Brigade for a long time, he remembers the old days when 3 people did the administration in Tara St. Nowdays there is three floors of admin staff doing the same work.

    The money is there to have a proper Fire Service, but at present too much is wasted in miss management and admin instead of equipment, training, tenders etc.

    The FGS Report also sites the problem. There is a two tier level of entry into the Fire Services. This means a fireman can not become a CFO. Therefore the CFOs are disconnected from reality.
    When Mark and Brian died the Bray CFO have never ever attended a fire!

    Must go, I'll try to get back later, all will be revealed.

    Phoenix FPSL.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,400

    Default Re: Bray Fire Deaths - Senior Wicklow County Council Official Arrested

    notasellout said -
    wow you seem very much in the know about whats going on. i thought them 2 firemen in bray got killed because the roof fell on them. is this call vetting a real thing, is it still going on, i would be interested if there was proof of it. are you personally connected to one of the firemen.

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Share us
Follow Us