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Thread: Germany moving Left?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    There are talks going on, apparently.

    I'm not sure what you mean by sharing with Greece.

    Greece, Spain and perhaps soon Ireland all have left-ish anti-austerity movements topping the polls. The shift to the left in Germany is part of the same move left.
    What I meant is that I don't think there's much chance of soft left parties in the wealthy North of Europe offering to tax their own populations to dig the Greeks, Spanish, Italians or even ourselves out of a hole. A proper pan EU left would be proposing just that, and, moreover, the monetary union might actually start to work if this was done.

    Blizzards in Hell will be reported before that happens...
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    I c an see a lot of change coming but not all of it will be welcome. I distrust Die Linke totally and think their economic policies are bonkers. If the SPD want to lose their identity, meaning and attraction totally, then they will have done some grubby deal to allow Sahra Wagenknecht into power in some way. She is genuinely unelectable but has her fans. Again, I do not see that apocalyptic scenario unfurling but then, Merkel has been blessed by her enemies.
    Look at UKIP´s plans for the NHS and you will see their Achilles Heel. You mess with the NHS at your peril in the UK because it is political suicide to do so. Nobody seems to have told Nige this. Like Die LInke, UKIP is best known for what it is against than what it is for. Like Die Linke, it is primarily a protest party, coming form the other end of the political spectrum. Like Die Linke, it is fundamentally unelectable as a party of government.

    On a European level for left-wing politics, the failure to unify around a few simple, clearly-enunciated tenets and push these forward as a viable alternative to "austerity" imposed by the ECB, the EC and Wolfgang Schaeuble has made it easy for the proponents of austerity to get their way. Until something of that nature develops, prepare for more of the same. Whatever else you may think of Merkel, she has been playing "senior hurling" for years, as Pat Rabbitte might put it, and if you are going to beat her argument, you better be good.
    It is not difficult to defeat her 'argument' intellectually speaking.

    Essentially the proponents of such an argument just repeat their argument and do not understand alternatives do exist, and do not want to understand these alternatives, such as they are. Europhiles have this arrogance about them too. My advice for anybody interested is to look up Phillipe Le Grain's views on Europhilia and Neoliberalism, such as they are.

    The Head of the Irish State has done Sterling work on this, traveling the world in favour of progressive and socially inclusive Economic progress rather than to promote an elitist ideology.

    He has criticised Merkel and others indirectly and cleverly in his EU speeches.

    He has criticised Govt. policy on direct provision and homelessness in a very clever and co-ordinated way, and in a way that has helped the snowball effect against the govt. over these issues which is now forcing govt. to begin to do something, albeit such pressure will have to be kept on them to even deliver something stopgap as the moment people look away, all is cut.

    I do like Sandra and Die Linke, and no I don't think a national left coalition is impossible in Germany in the medium term.

    And nobody is unelectable. That's mainstream blather. UKIP will go in with the Tories if possible. Labour with everybody bar UKIP and the Orange Order, which is why Miliband is allowing some more Scottish devolution.

    Die Linke would go with the left.

    Much of the Irish left would offer some conditional support to SF.

    That sentence is like saying a Dáil full of SF/INDOS/Small parties would be 'unworkable'...an abstract criticising a lack of detail in opponents with a lack of detail in and of itself!!

    Etc etc.
    Last edited by Apjp; 07-12-2014 at 07:25 PM.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    Look at Die Linke in Germany. A direct descendant of the SED, the East German Communist Party and the party of the Stasi, it was in the 90s the PDS. I was living in east Berlin at the time and I remember it being a protest party with EVERYTHING in it: Maoists, communist recidivists, punks, autonomen and Gregor Gysi. Now it has gestated into DIE Linke, and like the Greens before them, are split between pragmatists like Bodo Ramelow and nutters like Sahra Wagenknecht. Nevertheless, it is a party which, despite its extremely disparate membership, nevertheless manages to present itself to the electorate under a single banner.

    I do not like them but admire the way they can organise to achieve electoral success. It is, in my experience, very unusual in left wing politics and seems to be an alien concept in Ireland.
    German Political culture works that way maybe.

    Like the Irish pragmatism devoid of the sellouts and corruption. I.e. if parties here actually entered govt. to achieve something beyond lining their own pockets and that of their benefactors. I am thinking of Labour and to a lesser extent, The Greens, in particular.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    There are talks going on, apparently.

    I'm not sure what you mean by sharing with Greece.

    Greece, Spain and perhaps soon Ireland all have left-ish anti-austerity movements topping the polls. The shift to the left in Germany is part of the same move left.
    In one part of Germany.

    Other parts, such as the stigmatised East, have always voted Die Linke and this is why they lead the opposition in the Reichstag/Bundestag. Then again, parts of the East have moved towards CDU and some towards the NPD/AFD, though without harming the left vote consolidated by Die Linke/Greens.

    The CDU's courting of AFD today in Thuringen opposition shows their true colours.

    Only ever a good economic disaster away from their old politics.

    There's nothing wrong with voting Die Linke, and the left co-operation in some parts of Germany, not just in Thuringen but also in Berlin and othr areas in recent years, has been impressive.

    The challenge is to force the SPD to coalesce in future instead of just entering into govt. for a few progressive reforms.

    Having said that, they aren't a patch on the Irish Forced Labour party.

    Germany is a typical and untypical European democracy all at once, and in many ways.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    What shift to the left in Germany? The fact that in Thüringen, the SPD and Die Linke coalesced had a lot to do with the pragmatic Bodo Ramelow of Die Linke agreeing a practical programme for governing Thüringen with the SPD. Die Linke has too many headbangers to be attractive enough to sufficient numbers as to get them electable as a possible governing party on federal level.

    After the next election in Germany, I fully expect Angela Merkel to be there as Bundeskanzlerin. There will be no real shift to the left barring something extraordinary, unplanned, unscheduled and unexpected happening.
    A German economic collapse is looking ever probable.

    Merkel is similar to Bertie in many ways. Austerity abroad but Populism at home.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    A German economic collapse is looking ever probable.

    Merkel is similar to Bertie in many ways. Austerity abroad but Populism at home.
    That is an interesting thought. Any interesting bank account issues?😉

    More seriously, it is a tenet of political wisdom that the longer they last, the harder they fall..."all political careers end in failure, Mr Blair, and yours will be no exception" (line from the film The Queen).

    Haughey, Blair, Thatcher, Bertie....all spent a long time in power and their reputations are now, for disparate reasons, in tatters.

    Merkel; another such? Will she go down as the single most important author of austerity, the cause of EU failure, or will she survive?

    Another possible discreditor, this one more relevant to folks at home in Deutschland, is energy security. If playing hardball with Putin/canning all the nuclear power results in gas shortages and price hikes, she's toast. Long term.
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Germans are pissed off over the Russian sanctions.

    This has annoyed Slim and we had a heated disagreement over views propagated by everybody on the centre to the left of merkel.

    They don't agree with Russian sanctions. This is a move forced on the govt. by Geopolitics and Merkel has taken a minimalist approach.

  8. #38
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    Default Germany moving Left?

    I am afraid the sanctions are applied by those in power without a care in the world for how they affect the ordinary people. Britain and Ireland are largely supplied by North Sea gas (including Norwegian) and we have Corrib waiting in the wings, but an energy war with Russia would collapse the Continent. Funnily enough, Hollande met with Putin the other day; them aircraft carriers need paying for! Why do I have a feeling that the Continental Bert equivalents are probably quietly figuring out ways of circumventing the sanctions without the US of A finding out. Vox populi, vox Dei, after all...
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    It is not difficult to defeat her 'argument' intellectually speaking.

    Essentially the proponents of such an argument just repeat their argument and do not understand alternatives do exist, and do not want to understand these alternatives, such as they are. Europhiles have this arrogance about them too. My advice for anybody interested is to look up Phillipe Le Grain's views on Europhilia and Neoliberalism, such as they are.

    The Head of the Irish State has done Sterling work on this, traveling the world in favour of progressive and socially inclusive Economic progress rather than to promote an elitist ideology.

    He has criticised Merkel and others indirectly and cleverly in his EU speeches.

    He has criticised Govt. policy on direct provision and homelessness in a very clever and co-ordinated way, and in a way that has helped the snowball effect against the govt. over these issues which is now forcing govt. to begin to do something, albeit such pressure will have to be kept on them to even deliver something stopgap as the moment people look away, all is cut.

    I do like Sandra and Die Linke, and no I don't think a national left coalition is impossible in Germany in the medium term.

    And nobody is unelectable. That's mainstream blather. UKIP will go in with the Tories if possible. Labour with everybody bar UKIP and the Orange Order, which is why Miliband is allowing some more Scottish devolution.

    Die Linke would go with the left.

    Much of the Irish left would offer some conditional support to SF.

    That sentence is like saying a Dáil full of SF/INDOS/Small parties would be 'unworkable'...an abstract criticising a lack of detail in opponents with a lack of detail in and of itself!!

    Etc etc.

    Michael D. Higgins does a good job as President and is not an embarrassment. SOme of those who ran against him were, frankly, embarrassing. He makes interesting speeches. But let´s face it, he is powerless.
    By "Sandra" I presume you mean Sahra Wagenknecht. She is a nutter and you need to watch more German television to see her give herslf enough rope!
    She is also the partner of Oskar Lafontaine. Enough said.
    Die Linke are unelectable as a party of government in the Bundestag at the moment. It will be years before they come anywhere near being electable.
    It is not mainstream blather. It is realpolitik in Germany. UKIPs policies are a laugh too if you are looking for a laugh.
    The Left have had 6 years since the crash and the gruesome remedy thought up by the ECB and others for the Left to get organised. Domestically and internationally, they are nowhere near a coherent response.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Germans are pissed off over the Russian sanctions.

    This has annoyed Slim and we had a heated disagreement over views propagated by everybody on the centre to the left of merkel.

    They don't agree with Russian sanctions. This is a move forced on the govt. by Geopolitics and Merkel has taken a minimalist approach.
    Not really. I am more pissed off with Die Linke allowing that nutter Wagenknecht and her cabal work their malign influence over the party foreign policy and bend the knee, just like in the time of the SED, to Moscow.
    There are still hardline Stalinists in Die LInke and it is they who decided that the party support Putin on Crimea. Germans are not going to indulge this sort of bolloxology for long. That alone makes these bozos unelectable.

    By the way, the SPD DO agree with sanctions on Russia.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Merkel under threat from a left-ish alliance in State election ?

    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world...ate/ar-BByphLJ
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Surprisingly detailed report but well it's a bit thin as there have been Red-Red-Green coalitions before and (as article says) currently in Berlin (SPD led) and Thuringia (Left Party led , South Western Lander of the East) . It might be the 1st in the West if they get the majority . A signifance is that it is Lafontaine's home state and there seems to be a further thaw in SPD-Linke relations (bad blood as Lafontaine is ex SPD who left over the Agenda 2010 drastic cuts to the welfare state under Schroder . In particular long term unemployed had payments slashed to around €80 a week ) .
    However Left party/Linke had been pushing the Red-Red-Green at federal level for some time I think and seems to be hoping the SPD will let them in out of the cold ? Linke being similar to Sinn Fein in being the guys from the wrong side of town . Personally I think Linke are right the Left needs to be seen to be doing all it can to protect it's supporters even if Greece was a going on disaster . Schulz is seen as slipperly but does seem to be tacking left to maintain his momentum

    Here the usually ironic (as far as Schulz is concerned) Left aligned paper Neues Deutschland reports carefully on the niceties
    https://www.neues-deutschland.de/art...-saarland.html
    Last edited by GregTimo; 21-03-2017 at 10:30 AM.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    No swing left in Saarland if the polls here are correct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saarla...election,_2017

    In Germany overall Schulz and the SPD have simply recovered ground that had been lost to the Left party and Greens mostly. He's a bit of a personality they say .
    The gains of populist to extreme right AFD seemingly has come mostly from CDU to oversimplify, but exit polls in the state elections in Saxony Anhalt and/or Pomerania* in the east indicated most of their worrying surge was from people who had not voted (or who had stopped voting)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinio...election,_2017

    *Heavy analysis from the Die Linke associated foundation http://www.rosalux.de/publication/42...aerz-2016.html
    Last edited by GregTimo; 21-03-2017 at 04:59 PM.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Hopes for a center to middle left 'red red green' coalition in Saarland lander (state) are not realised as SPD, Left party and Greens all lost in what is an unexpected victory for Merkel's CDU . The SPD's recovery surge under Schulz federally may be a mirage ? Linke (left party) have had problems maintaining their high support here but the Greens dropping out of the Landtag (state parliament) must be the most dissapointed ? http://www.fr.de/politik/saarland-wa...land-a-1247400

    The Left party friendly view from Berlin https://www.neues-deutschland.de/art...mitschuld.html

    Comparisons here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saarla...election,_2017
    Last edited by GregTimo; 26-03-2017 at 05:09 PM.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    An afternote is that the most populous state Nordrhein Westphalia votes in May . An SPD stronghold, opinion polls are not indicating gains for them . The Greens are down again and the Left party are struggling to come back over the 5% barrier. Judging by the commentary of Neues Deutschland above, who seemed happy enough at the Saarland result (if Google translate had it right), that is all they are really hoping for at this stage .
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_...election,_2017

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