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Thread: Germany moving Left?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    There is a tendency to blame "the Germans" for the austerity misery Ireland has been suffering for the last 6 years and I would agree that they have made a contribution to this misery which has been unhelpful to say the least. But there is less of a willingness to accept that stroke politics, cute-hoorism, "light-touch"/Phuq-all regulation of banks and financial institutions, economic illiteracy and a total lack of understanding of how to run a country properly by the then-ruling FF-PD cabal in office was, and continues to be, the main reason why this austerity was imposed.

    A shaven gibbon could have seen that the low interest rate economic policy pursued by the ECB was in the interests of the German economy but ran totally against the interest of the Irish economy and in such circumstances, tight control of money supply was needed to avoid a credit splurge and a property bubble. The fact that the FF-PD government, the banking sector and the titans of the property racket collectively did not possess the intelligence of a shaven gibbon is the prime reason why the thin gruel of austerity is the daily menu for Ireland these days, not "the Germans".
    Other commentators on this thread are still FF voters and I do not see to give their views credence.

    I do seek to oppose and encourage others at home and abroad to oppose Merkelism as FF are not looking likely to be in govt. anytime soon unless FG bastardise them back into the mothership. and meanwhile we are still dealing with this ideology which has many overeager converts in FG/Labour.

    Merkel will have to deal with a lot of awkward governments from Greece, Cyprus, Spain and hopefully Ireland from 2015 onwards. I expect Italy and France to get even more militant too considering the populist right's advances there. Austria supports Italy in this.

    Hollande especially has 3 years and nothing to lose by throwing the sink at Merkel.

    I would point out though what you are saying about what was needed required a continuation of the Punt, not joining the euro, which I assume from your post you agree was a major mistake led by the greed of the elite of the day as well as blind ideology(PDS) and corruption(FF mostly, but also pds).

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Nice to see Merkel upset.
    A rare pleasure.

    As the Russian sanctions reverse on them, who knows what could happen elsewhere.

    She's probably safe for 2017 but the left could slowly eat up a number of States, as Die Linke and the Greens are already minor coalition partners in many States anyways, which would give her real headaches and is to be welcomed.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Other commentators on this thread are still FF voters and I do not see to give their views credence.).
    Is that the best counter argument you can come up with? Surely not?
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Other commentators on this thread are still FF voters and I do not see to give their views credence.

    I do seek to oppose and encourage others at home and abroad to oppose Merkelism as FF are not looking likely to be in govt. anytime soon unless FG bastardise them back into the mothership. and meanwhile we are still dealing with this ideology which has many overeager converts in FG/Labour.

    Merkel will have to deal with a lot of awkward governments from Greece, Cyprus, Spain and hopefully Ireland from 2015 onwards. I expect Italy and France to get even more militant too considering the populist right's advances there. Austria supports Italy in this.

    Hollande especially has 3 years and nothing to lose by throwing the sink at Merkel.

    I would point out though what you are saying about what was needed required a continuation of the Punt, not joining the euro, which I assume from your post you agree was a major mistake led by the greed of the elite of the day as well as blind ideology(PDS) and corruption(FF mostly, but also pds).
    Well, the PDs have been consigned to the thrash-can of history and hopefully FF will wither on the vine, sooner rather than later. FG and Labour could be heading for the same cemetery of political failure and an Ireland minus the PDs, FF, FG and Labour would immediately be a brighter place. Maybe a few years of political uncertainty will be necessary to wipe out the dead wood which has served the nation so badly. But without genuine, comprehensive and meaningful political reform, we will be condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past and continue to elect rubbish to the highest forum of democracy in the country.
    The joining of the Euro was, in hindsight, a mistake, especially as out biggest trading partner, the UK, didn't join. Whether a coalition of unhappy states can co-ordinate themselves to oppose Merkel remains to be seen.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    Is that the best counter argument you can come up with? Surely not?
    My argument was below that line.

    That sentence in and of itself was re-iterating, as it cannot be re-iterated often enough, that I have absolutely no support for FF past or present or future and I think anybody who votes for them at this stage, besides OAP party loyalists, possibly needs their head examined.

    Slim is bang on the money, as are those of us opposed to Merkelism.

    It's both of these things that have screwed Ireland to the point of it being run for the benefit of an oligarch, creditors, and corporate leeches not to mind the usual Bunreacht arse wiping suspects.

    For the record FF in 2008-2011 equally arse wiped the Bunreacht when it suited them.

    The German left could force the SPD to take part more nationally in 2017 if Germany goes into recession, which would leave Merkel in trouble coalition wise as the SPD does not generally tend to enter into coalition as a junior party successively for the CDU's benefit-they get what they can out of them then get out.
    Last edited by Apjp; 06-12-2014 at 10:26 PM.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    Well, the PDs have been consigned to the thrash-can of history and hopefully FF will wither on the vine, sooner rather than later. FG and Labour could be heading for the same cemetery of political failure and an Ireland minus the PDs, FF, FG and Labour would immediately be a brighter place. Maybe a few years of political uncertainty will be necessary to wipe out the dead wood which has served the nation so badly. But without genuine, comprehensive and meaningful political reform, we will be condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past and continue to elect rubbish to the highest forum of democracy in the country.
    The joining of the Euro was, in hindsight, a mistake, especially as out biggest trading partner, the UK, didn't join. Whether a coalition of unhappy states can co-ordinate themselves to oppose Merkel remains to be seen.
    Germany on the other hand benefits from the euro and surpluses in excess while moaning at others not to have deficits, despite the fact these deficits benefit Germany's economy.

    Merkel's politically astute maybe and definitely the woman in charge of Europe atm. Economically bright? Not a chance.

    Someone like Tsipras nearly got elected in 2012 and it threatened her and the ECB's grip.

    Similarly a conservative minded Cypriot govt. nearly brought the house down and only accepted a moderated package after Russia's conditions were even worse, and they are marked out now as future rebels and an in house subverting influence on others, as all Cypriot parties seek something that isn't Merkelism. Cypriot savers had their working man's wealth stolen to pay off bank debts.

    Imagine 4-5 people like Alex Tsipras at the Table in Brussels.

    Then imagine 2-3 Marine Le Pen's on the other side from the bigger countries(personally I think Italy will avoid electing Grillo).

    Merkel cannot keep France and Italy on board already, and somebody as inflexible as that could bring the whole house of cards down as readily as any 'extremist'.

    Seems likely to me that UKIP will be in govt. with the Tories soon too unless Labour lead a SNP/Green/Lib Dem/Plaid Cymru/others alliance in.

    Farage has already said he wants to be Minister For Europe, which is a bigged up role now in Britain, unlike the Super Junior type role we have in the Taoiseach's office, where the resident Minister gets access to the halls of power but little input or influence.

    I'm sure you see of all of this coming, and we know of course there will be an Irish election in 2015 too, and massive instability awaits, thanks be to God.
    Last edited by Apjp; 06-12-2014 at 10:37 PM.

  7. #22
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    Default Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    Well, the PDs have been consigned to the thrash-can of history and hopefully FF will wither on the vine, sooner rather than later. FG and Labour could be heading for the same cemetery of political failure and an Ireland minus the PDs, FF, FG and Labour would immediately be a brighter place. Maybe a few years of political uncertainty will be necessary to wipe out the dead wood which has served the nation so badly. But without genuine, comprehensive and meaningful political reform, we will be condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past and continue to elect rubbish to the highest forum of democracy in the country.
    The joining of the Euro was, in hindsight, a mistake, especially as out biggest trading partner, the UK, didn't join. Whether a coalition of unhappy states can co-ordinate themselves to oppose Merkel remains to be seen.
    I think there will always be a group of wealthy people who will have need of representation by a right wing party so sadly I would be fairly sure FG will survive.

    Lab, maybe not. FF needs to reconnect with more working class nationalist voters; its traditional power base. They may very well not succeed as SF now occupies that space, but it depends on who is in power next and how woefully they screw up. The Inds need to consolidate a bit. Most states have 2-4 major parties; we will be no exception, BUT I would agree they won't be the historic 2.5 parties.

    I suspect the Ansbacher stuff might have been a bit of a straw on the camel's back for many.

    I have no idea who will turn up on ye doorstep after they call elections (probably on Dec 11th after a riot the day before &#128521, but I will find it hard to justify voting for anyone over 40 with a pre-existing seat for more than 5 years. Owing to what appears to have been a pervasive culture of fingers in the greasy till. I'd not imagine I'm the only "disgusted of [insert locality]" out there.

    The euro was an all pervasive error that must have been acknowledged in private by most of Europe at this point. I wonder are we stuck with it at this point, though? Gordon Brown is now being celebrated in the UK for preventing entry. Probably correctly...they'd have collapsed apart from the BoE printing presses/devaluation.
    Last edited by morticia; 07-12-2014 at 07:09 AM.
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Germany on the other hand benefits from the euro and surpluses in excess while moaning at others not to have deficits, despite the fact these deficits benefit Germany's economy.

    Merkel's politically astute maybe and definitely the woman in charge of Europe atm. Economically bright? Not a chance.

    Someone like Tsipras nearly got elected in 2012 and it threatened her and the ECB's grip.

    Similarly a conservative minded Cypriot govt. nearly brought the house down and only accepted a moderated package after Russia's conditions were even worse, and they are marked out now as future rebels and an in house subverting influence on others, as all Cypriot parties seek something that isn't Merkelism. Cypriot savers had their working man's wealth stolen to pay off bank debts.

    Imagine 4-5 people like Alex Tsipras at the Table in Brussels.

    Then imagine 2-3 Marine Le Pen's on the other side from the bigger countries(personally I think Italy will avoid electing Grillo).

    Merkel cannot keep France and Italy on board already, and somebody as inflexible as that could bring the whole house of cards down as readily as any 'extremist'.

    Seems likely to me that UKIP will be in govt. with the Tories soon too unless Labour lead a SNP/Green/Lib Dem/Plaid Cymru/others alliance in.

    Farage has already said he wants to be Minister For Europe, which is a bigged up role now in Britain, unlike the Super Junior type role we have in the Taoiseach's office, where the resident Minister gets access to the halls of power but little input or influence.

    I'm sure you see of all of this coming, and we know of course there will be an Irish election in 2015 too, and massive instability awaits, thanks be to God.

    I c an see a lot of change coming but not all of it will be welcome. I distrust Die Linke totally and think their economic policies are bonkers. If the SPD want to lose their identity, meaning and attraction totally, then they will have done some grubby deal to allow Sahra Wagenknecht into power in some way. She is genuinely unelectable but has her fans. Again, I do not see that apocalyptic scenario unfurling but then, Merkel has been blessed by her enemies.
    Look at UKIP´s plans for the NHS and you will see their Achilles Heel. You mess with the NHS at your peril in the UK because it is political suicide to do so. Nobody seems to have told Nige this. Like Die LInke, UKIP is best known for what it is against than what it is for. Like Die Linke, it is primarily a protest party, coming form the other end of the political spectrum. Like Die Linke, it is fundamentally unelectable as a party of government.

    On a European level for left-wing politics, the failure to unify around a few simple, clearly-enunciated tenets and push these forward as a viable alternative to "austerity" imposed by the ECB, the EC and Wolfgang Schaeuble has made it easy for the proponents of austerity to get their way. Until something of that nature develops, prepare for more of the same. Whatever else you may think of Merkel, she has been playing "senior hurling" for years, as Pat Rabbitte might put it, and if you are going to beat her argument, you better be good.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    We need a more unified Pan European left really, isn't that what we're all coalescing around here, Comrades 😉?
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    We need a more unified Pan European left really, isn't that what we're all coalescing around here, Comrades ��?
    Not really. A cursory look at Ireland 6 years into austerity and where are we with that? Peoples Front of Judea stuff.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    Not really. A cursory look at Ireland 6 years into austerity and where are we with that? Peoples Front of Judea stuff.
    We don't have a United left. We need one, but we don't really have one, true. Even more the case on an EU level; many parties manage left wing representation within their own countries, but are they offering to share with the likes of Greece? Not a chance!
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    We don't have a United left. We need one, but we don't really have one, true. Even more the case on an EU level; many parties manage left wing representation within their own countries, but are they offering to share with the likes of Greece? Not a chance!
    Look at Die Linke in Germany. A direct descendant of the SED, the East German Communist Party and the party of the Stasi, it was in the 90s the PDS. I was living in east Berlin at the time and I remember it being a protest party with EVERYTHING in it: Maoists, communist recidivists, punks, autonomen and Gregor Gysi. Now it has gestated into DIE Linke, and like the Greens before them, are split between pragmatists like Bodo Ramelow and nutters like Sahra Wagenknecht. Nevertheless, it is a party which, despite its extremely disparate membership, nevertheless manages to present itself to the electorate under a single banner.

    I do not like them but admire the way they can organise to achieve electoral success. It is, in my experience, very unusual in left wing politics and seems to be an alien concept in Ireland.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    I'd agree. The soft left (FF pre PD and boom, Labour pre this govt, SF now) seem united enough, but not the SP, SWP, PBP etc. The biggest division seems to be along Republican vs Socialist/Unionist lines. And that won't break down easily.

    On the other hand, I can't emphasise enough how happy I am that the Irish nationalist parties are left leaning and not a la Front Nationale. Or that we have no real equivalent of UKIP, Vlaams Bloc, Geert Wilders, True Finns etc.

    Ireland has a few things going for it.
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    We don't have a United left. We need one, but we don't really have one, true. Even more the case on an EU level; many parties manage left wing representation within their own countries, but are they offering to share with the likes of Greece? Not a chance!
    There are talks going on, apparently.

    I'm not sure what you mean by sharing with Greece.

    Greece, Spain and perhaps soon Ireland all have left-ish anti-austerity movements topping the polls. The shift to the left in Germany is part of the same move left.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
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    Default Re: Germany moving Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    There are talks going on, apparently.

    I'm not sure what you mean by sharing with Greece.

    Greece, Spain and perhaps soon Ireland all have left-ish anti-austerity movements topping the polls. The shift to the left in Germany is part of the same move left.
    What shift to the left in Germany? The fact that in Thüringen, the SPD and Die Linke coalesced had a lot to do with the pragmatic Bodo Ramelow of Die Linke agreeing a practical programme for governing Thüringen with the SPD. Die Linke has too many headbangers to be attractive enough to sufficient numbers as to get them electable as a possible governing party on federal level.

    After the next election in Germany, I fully expect Angela Merkel to be there as Bundeskanzlerin. There will be no real shift to the left barring something extraordinary, unplanned, unscheduled and unexpected happening.

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