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Thread: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

  1. #16
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Last edited by C. Flower; 13-09-2014 at 08:05 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #17
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    That link is looking for some sort of login ...
    Last edited by C. Flower; 13-09-2014 at 08:06 PM.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    That link is looking for some sort of login ...
    Putinist propaganda for members only?

    Too good to be true. Proper link.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalMayhem View Post
    Putinist propaganda for members only?

    Too good to be true. Proper link.
    Thanks. I've fixed it in the previous posts.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  5. #20
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    From the UN Human Rights Report August 2014: the current Ukraine government is not waiting for Yatsenyuk's new party to push on with a neo-fascist - bandera-ist project.

    13. Parliament approved three laws during its 12-15 August session that would significantly
    expand the powers of law enforcement bodies in relation to the security operation in the east.

    These include laws to expand the powers of the prosecutor and extending the period of preventive detention of suspects, which appear to be in conflict with international human rights standards, and to restrict the rights of due process and presumption of innocence. While acknowledging that security measures might require the adoption of specific provisions limiting certain guarantees, they must always be consistent with the norms, standards and procedures of international law.10
    Page 5
    Particular attention must also be paid to ensure that those people who remained in the areas under the control of armed groups do not face false claims of collaboration, with any such allegation being met with due process and the avoidance of reprisals.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  6. #21
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Do you know that the organisations that SL says are fascist are openly self-describing fascists and neo nazis ? Why do you dismiss what is said ? Even the heavily biased mainstream western press who have interviewed Biletsky of the Azov Battalion in the last couple of weeks says that he and it are fascist.

    I think perhaps because of Ireland's neutrality in WW2 and also because of the deep-going influence of the Roman Catholic Church which backed Franco, there is no real understanding here any more of fascism. That was not the case in the 1930s when Irish workers whupped the backsides of the wannabe fascist forebears of Fine Gael.

    Fascism is pure political reaction: it is a form of politics used by the capitalist class when they have need to wipe out large numbers of people to restore their sliding rates of profit. There is no level of cruelty and destruction that it doesn't relish.

    Very good OP. A few links to sources would be the icing on the cake.

    It is yet another attempt to paint the Ukrainian people as somehow uniquely fascist or leaning towards fascism in a way no other nation does. Which, of course, is ********. Pure and simple. It is the failure of any sort of non-corrupt centre left and centre right politics to develop and the wildly popular removal of the vile and hopelessly corrupt Viktor Yanukovych and its aftermath has not allowed any kind of normality to occur in politics.

    Most Ukrainians I know would like a normal country governed by reasonably intelligent and non-corrupt people in a constitutional manner befitting a modern republic, free to develop in its own way as an independent country. Not as a hotbed of fascism, or some other extremist "heaven". Is it too much to ask? It seems so.

    So go ahead with your "Ukrainians are fascists" thread. I look forward to all the informed comments of those who are utterly unfamiliar with Ukraine and Ukrainians.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    Very good post Sam... telling that the only "rebuttal" is calling you a Stalinist - a term which has no meaning beyond being intended as an insult.

    You nailed in many months ago when you said that "the genie is out of the bottle". The fascists have gained more power beyond even that which they had in their wildest dreams. The writing was on the wall once the agreement between the moderates and the legitimate government of Ukraine was brushed aside by the fascists, from that point on they took the lead and others, like the liberal democrats, meekly fell into line.

    SO you will be, as a good "republican", cheering from the sidelines when Putin loses total control and cuts large chunks out of Ukraine to realise the Novorossiya" imperialism now rampant in Russia?

    Some bloody "republican!

  8. #23
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    SO you will be, as a good "republican", cheering from the sidelines when Putin loses total control and cuts large chunks out of Ukraine to realise the Novorossiya" imperialism now rampant in Russia?

    Some bloody "republican!
    When you are quite done with the hysterics you might point out where I said any of that.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    When you are quite done with the hysterics you might point out where I said any of that.
    Hysterics? Hardly. You are agreeing with someone who longs to see the destruction of Ukraine, believing as he does that it is full of "fascists", someone who backs the concept of "Novorossiya" which is the imperialist idea at large in Russia now among those who believe Ukraine has no right to exist, and buying into the idea that because Ukraine is "full of fascists", it deserves what it gets form Putin.

    Strange position for someone who proudly professes his "republicanism".

  10. #25
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    Hysterics? Hardly. You are agreeing with someone who longs to see the destruction of Ukraine, believing as he does that it is full of "fascists", someone who backs the concept of "Novorossiya" which is the imperialist idea at large in Russia now among those who believe Ukraine has no right to exist, and buying into the idea that because Ukraine is "full of fascists", it deserves what it gets form Putin.

    Strange position for someone who proudly professes his "republicanism".
    You should try reading what people write, and stop putting words into peoples mouths. You've shown time and time again that you are unable to discuss this topic - you degenerate into emotional hysterics. The point has been made a billion times that Ukraine is NOT full of fascists but that those who should know better are dancing to their tune.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    It is yet another attempt to paint the Ukrainian people as somehow uniquely fascist or leaning towards fascism in a way no other nation does. Which, of course, is ********. Pure and simple. It is the failure of any sort of non-corrupt centre left and centre right politics to develop and the wildly popular removal of the vile and hopelessly corrupt Viktor Yanukovych and its aftermath has not allowed any kind of normality to occur in politics.

    Most Ukrainians I know would like a normal country governed by reasonably intelligent and non-corrupt people in a constitutional manner befitting a modern republic, free to develop in its own way as an independent country. Not as a hotbed of fascism, or some other extremist "heaven". Is it too much to ask? It seems so.

    So go ahead with your "Ukrainians are fascists" thread. I look forward to all the informed comments of those who are utterly unfamiliar with Ukraine and Ukrainians.
    As someone who is familiar with Ukraine, do you think Biletsky is, or is not, a neo - Nazi ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #27
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    You should try reading what people write, and stop putting words into peoples mouths. You've shown time and time again that you are unable to discuss this topic - you degenerate into emotional hysterics. The point has been made a billion times that Ukraine is NOT full of fascists but that those who should know better are dancing to their tune.

    Maybe its because I have been in Ukraine 4 times since March with ordinary Ukrainians and tend to see things from their point of view. Not the viewpoint of one bunch of chitbags fighting another bunch of chitbags. I find the glib and blasé acceptance of the correctness of the position of the leader of the Russian Federation on this thread extraordinary.
    The country where I live sees its remit in defence issues as one where they defend the country from within the country. There is an acceptance here, it seems, that Russia defence entitles it to invade another country, annex part of its territory, invade the eastern two provinces and prosecute a war on the most spurious grounds.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    A useful analysis of the Ukraine elections. Poroshenko pretty well has to jump to Yatsenyuk's tune at this stage.

    Sadly, this means war - he is withdrawing the agreement for limited devolution and is meeting his military chiefs tomorrow. It could start at any time.


    New phase of the Ukrainian crisis after elections



    By Nahia Sanzo
    With a decent share of common European standards, the Ukrainian elections have satisfied the authorities of the European Union, United States and international organizations, which have highlighted the results as a step forward in the search for peace and stability in the country. The elections have not brought any big surprise, with the party of the prime minister and the president as the two big winners on more evenly matched than expected elections. As foreshadowed the disappointing results of the presidential election in May, Yulia Tymoshenko has not been able to regain credit, and even though his group has indeed exceeded 5% of the vote needed to enter the Rada, his position is extreme weakness.
    The result implies for Poroshenko lose any leeway to choose a prime minister. Without some ability to appoint a prime minister from his circle to consolidate its power, the results leave Yatseniuk as the only viable candidate. The result of Yatseniuk, most voted that the president himself, gives an incredibly advantageous position in negotiating not only his position in the government, but the composition of this. Unlike in May when Poroshenko election victory gave it a wide margin, the president's position is seriously weakened. With his main opponent in the post of prime minister, the possibility of increased infighting within the regime itself increases considerably with the electoral success of the Popular Front Yatseniuk that after the withdrawal of his candidacy for president in May, out of these legislative remarkably reinforced.
    The nationalist vote has been concentrated in the newly created Popular Front Yatseniuk and Turchinov, who gave the only significant surprise taking the popular vote a few tenths ahead of Block Poroshenko, a priori absolute favorite, which is now in a position slightly complicated when forming a government. The first consequences of this electoral success was not long in coming, and while Poroshenko declared their intention to form a government with Yatseniuk to the head, the leader of the Popular Front threatens to form his own coalition in an attempt to pressure the president and get thus a best position of his supporters in the new government, which inevitably will consist Block Poroshenko and the Popular Front.
    Internal divisions are more than possible as Yatseniuk try to position themselves to qualify for the presidency, his real target in the medium term, but both are aware that the fighting would be catastrophic for the country right now. With right-wing battalions well armed and organized, the lawlessness that results Yatseniuk and a refusal to compromise with possible Poroshenko could create a chaotic situation difficult to control.
    Poroshenko's presidency began, as he takes care to remember whenever he can, with a ceasefire, followed by the hardest moments of a war that continues despite the high theoretical fire was signed ago almost two months in the Belarusian capital of Minsk. The war began in April under the command Yatseniuk Turchinov and visible head of the Popular Front, which have concentrated nationalist vote at the expense of the more radical options like Liashko Radical Party, which has itself achieved the desired result, or Svoboda Sector Law. To satisfy the European Union, whose concern for the presence of Svoboda in the Ukrainian Rada was explicit in 2012, the vote to punish Poroshenko, resulting, for unexpected, the surprising, has also focused on the figure of Yatseniuk One of the favorites in the West as Victoria Nuland made clear in the now famous intercepted phone conversation before the coup of February 22.
    There may be different reasons for the electoral success of Yatseniuk, which has focused part of the nationalist vote and has also taken part of his electorate Poroshenko, mainly consisting of a harder, nationalist and bellicose speech. While in the first months of his government foreign leaders, especially John Kerry of Yatseniuk emphasized their willingness to negotiate, especially to negotiate the promised decentralization of power, recent months have seen the most critical Yatseniuk and whose arguments have coincided with the parties of the extreme right than the president. While Poroshenko has been more pragmatic, both looking into the issue of the association agreement with the European Union on the issue of the war, more willing to negotiate a solution with Russian President Vladimir Putin, which has seen the extreme right as unforgivable concessions to the enemy, has increased in popularity Yatseniuk demanding that the agreement with the EU comes into effect immediately and, above all, promoting all out border wall to protect Ukraine from Russian invasion leader Popular Front continues to be used as an argument.
    The radicalization of discourse Yatseniuk, who has taken the radical discourse without losing its appearance Svoboda moderate, explains, at least in part, the far-right nationalist parties have not achieved success might have been expected. Still, the fact that jobs are offered to senior commanders and deputy commanders of battalions volunteers who participated in the war, as the appointment of Vadim Trojan, deputy commander of the openly fascist Battalion Azov, as police chief of the Kiev region demonstrates that, although they have not become major political groups in the Rada, the far right has a significant presence in Ukrainian politics and daily life.
    Despite defending Western discourse, as it did recently George Soros, Ukraine is more united than ever, these elections show just the opposite, especially with respect to the east and southeast. Despite the wear and tear that have brought the months of harassment and demolition to all things related to the regime of Yanukovych, Block of the Opposition has not only achieved the minimum to form own group in the Rada, but have obtained good results in eastern and southeastern regions. The good results obtained in these regions, especially in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions under control of Kiev, the bloc led Yuriy Boiko are, even though the game has not reached 10% of symptomatic votes to problems Ukraine beyond the economic collapse and the regions beyond its control.

    The map illustrates the turnout (in red the lowest participation) provides an almost perfect division of areas that until 1922 was part of Russia. Coupled with the low turnout, the failure of supporters when Maidan collect the votes of those citizens reflect the coup, the new regime's policies and months of war have taken their toll on the population and that the unit Ukrainian born around the Government after the victory of Maidan is just another myth of Western propaganda. It is especially very low participation in representative areas of the region controlled by Kiev Donetsk (Slavyansk Kramatorsk, Mariupol), where the population has made clear its view on the process with its massive abstention.
    Meanwhile, Moscow, which continues his idea of ​​explicitly support the political process in both cases, has recognized the Ukrainian elections as an expression of popular will, without elaborating on whether there were irregularities. But, unlike Western governments, has taken a similar position in relation to the November 2 election in popular republics of Donetsk and Lugansk. The Kremlin, perhaps hoping that after the legitimacy of both governments, born of a coup one and the other an armed rebellion could find a more constructive situation in which a negotiated solution accepts the tandem Poroshenko- Yatseniuk as governments Plotnitsky Zakharchenko and knowing it will be the only government to recognize as legitimate elections in Popular Republics and knowing that after these two elections, a new phase begins, uncertain and unpredictable, Ukrainian crisis.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  14. #29
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    Nazis in the mayors office

    http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Ukrain...medium=twitter

    According to news reports, Semenikhin drives around in a car bearing the number 14/88, a numerological reference to the phrases “we must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children” and “Heil Hitler”; replaced the picture of President Petro Poroshenko in his office with a portrait of Ukrainian national leader and Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera; and refused to fly the city’s official flag at the opening meeting of the city council because he objected to the star of David emblazoned on it.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: The merging of fascists and 'liberal democrats" in the Ukraine

    The title of this thread still provides useful food for thought.

    This Newsweek article is a "colour piece" movingly written about the 100 "fallen heroes" who were killed by snipers, titled "Is This How World War Three Starts"

    The feel given in th article is that they did not die in vain, and now Apple products and McDonalds are on tap in Kiev. And the Trade Union headquarters building burned out by the fascist gangs remains a ruin. The war in the Donbass goes on, and it is all, according to this article, Russia's fault.

    The writer is described as a former Special Ops pilot in the US forces who served in Iraq and Afghanistan , now reporting on Ukraine for Newsweek . He doesn't mention who the snipers were, although by its silence the piece implies the deaths were the fault of the deposed President - counterfactual, as the sniping is now known to have been a provocation by the Right. He finishes up his piece with a quote from the butcher, torturer and CIA chief James Petraeus.

    Where do nice liberal young activists, even heroic ones, end up, politically, if they don't ground themselves in some form of socialism ?

    It seems there is no real Third Way.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 24-02-2017 at 01:48 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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