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Thread: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

  1. #2641
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    ISIS being thrashed in Mosul. 100,000 civilians still in the Old City: we can have no idea how many civilian deaths.
    Indeed. What little news is allowed out about the suffering of civilians makes it clear that what is being done to the people of Mosul is one of the great 21st century atrocities, far worse than the more publicized suffering of Aleppo.

    A very prolonged thrashing that has gone both ways. That ISIS has managed to hang on in Mosul for so long, with every hand against them, is one of the great military feats, whatever one thinks of those bastards.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Indeed. What little news is allowed out about the suffering of civilians makes it clear that what is being done to the people of Mosul is one of the great 21st century atrocities, far worse than the more publicized suffering of Aleppo.

    A very prolonged thrashing that has gone both ways. That ISIS has managed to hang on in Mosul for so long, with every hand against them, is one of the great military feats, whatever one thinks of those bastards.

    -AMH-
    Well, not really. They had in theory a strong position - you were among those claiming they had massive support from the local population - and they were dug in in a dense urban area, which they had controlled long enough to fortify, build tunnels, booby trap etc. And they were using the local population as 'human shields'. It looks to me like an ignominious collapse. They blew up the Great Mosque in a fit of sulks. A suicide bomber blew up a meeting of ISIS leaders yesterday. They now only have a few hundred men left in 1 k square.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-bombers.html

    How many civilians do you think have been killed, and by whom ? What is your source for your comparison with Aleppo ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  3. #2643
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Fascinating article here:

    The Anarchists vs. the Islamic State

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-state-w466069
    "If you go far enough to either extreme of the political spectrum, Communist or fascist, you'll find hard-eyed men with guns who believe that anybody who doesn't think as they do should be incarcerated or exterminated. " - Jim Garrison, Former DA, New Orleans.

  4. #2644
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pluralist View Post
    The Rolling Stone is often good for a laugh. The YPG as avatars of "secular feminist anarcho-libertarianism." Luvvit. Well, now they've "rebranded," as their US military overseer just explained.

    http://www.militarytimes.com/2017/07...errorist-link/

    Like many anarchists from Frisco, the Rolling Stone's hero of the month is a bit, well, naive... Should have stuck to his previous "lumpenproletarian Leninism," then he wouldn't be an anarcho-footsoldier for Donald Trump.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Well, not really. They had in theory a strong position - you were among those claiming they had massive support from the local population - and they were dug in in a dense urban area, which they had controlled long enough to fortify, build tunnels, booby trap etc. And they were using the local population as 'human shields'. It looks to me like an ignominious collapse. They blew up the Great Mosque in a fit of sulks. A suicide bomber blew up a meeting of ISIS leaders yesterday. They now only have a few hundred men left in 1 k square.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-bombers.html

    How many civilians do you think have been killed, and by whom ? What is your source for your comparison with Aleppo ?
    I don't know how many civilians have been killed, have no way of finding out how, and I suspect nobody else will be able to, that is not info the powers that be want out there. There are hundreds of thousands of refugees. How many actually killed? Hard to say, but it's pretty clear that the US and its lackeys have killed far more people than ISIS. The single incident that made the papers with hundreds of refugees killed by the US in one bombing that made it out of the press blackout is surely just the tip of the iceberg.

    Source of comparison with Aleppo? Pretty obvious. In both cases, death from the skies. Main technique barrel bombs with Aleppo, seems like white phosphorus was a biggie with the US.

    As for this "human shield" business, that is the standard trope used by imperial forces to justify "collateral damage" slaughtering the colonials. I do not recall any cases of ISIS tying civilians up in barbed wire and dragging them in front of their military positions as human shields, which is what that would mean if it were anything other than US imperial propaganda. Did ISIS shoot civilians too? No doubt, they are a pretty unpleasant bunch, but hardly on the scale of what the US and its lackeys have done in Mosul.

    This is, or anyway used to be, a densely occupied city. For the bombers to blame the civilian victims of their bombing on the defenders is obscene.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    I don't know how many civilians have been killed, have no way of finding out how, and I suspect nobody else will be able to, that is not info the powers that be want out there. There are hundreds of thousands of refugees. How many actually killed? Hard to say, but it's pretty clear that the US and its lackeys have killed far more people than ISIS. The single incident that made the papers with hundreds of refugees killed by the US in one bombing that made it out of the press blackout is surely just the tip of the iceberg.

    Source of comparison with Aleppo? Pretty obvious. In both cases, death from the skies. Main technique barrel bombs with Aleppo, seems like white phosphorus was a biggie with the US.

    As for this "human shield" business, that is the standard trope used by imperial forces to justify "collateral damage" slaughtering the colonials. I do not recall any cases of ISIS tying civilians up in barbed wire and dragging them in front of their military positions as human shields, which is what that would mean if it were anything other than US imperial propaganda. Did ISIS shoot civilians too? No doubt, they are a pretty unpleasant bunch, but hardly on the scale of what the US and its lackeys have done in Mosul.

    This is, or anyway used to be, a densely occupied city. For the bombers to blame the civilian victims of their bombing on the defenders is obscene.

    -AMH-

    Lets get this straight. ISIS are in your view the defenders of Mosul ?

    Who were they defending ? Themselves ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donal Og View Post
    Anyone would think the Protestant Reformation was a uniformly progressive movement.It abolished a lot of corrupt practices in the RCC. But it also impoverished millions of people , with the dissolution of monasteries and alms houses.It also led to the destruction of lots of lovely ( idolatrous) art a la Isis in Iraq and Syria. People often say Islam needs a Reformation. Has anyone ever considered : maybe this is it?
    That's an interesting question. The Protestant Reformation involved destruction as you say of feudal relations in which people had some responsibility for each other and enabling market capitalism. It removed rights and laws that held back capitalism, and progressive capitalism led to much improved living standards overall. In the same way as feudalism led to improvements over tribal society, which it replaced. But ISIS on the other hand seems to disintegrate societies without any new form coming about that creates better living conditions. On the contrary.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The leaked cable that exposed a CIA/Blackwater man as working on Syrian regime change in 2011-2012 (after having been present at the killing of Gaddhafi) also mentions US contractors Booz Hamilton as being at the same game. Income of over 4 billion a year and packed with assets. Snowden, interestingly, is a former Booz Hamilton employee.

    https://leaksource.wordpress.com/201...llen-hamilton/
    Well sadly that link has gone and I will have to search for it again.

    But while looking for it, found a reference to Hugh Wilford's book "America's Great Game" which looks like a fascinating read and which tracks CIA interference in Syria and elsewhere in the Middle East back to the 1950s.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  9. #2649
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Lets get this straight. ISIS are in your view the defenders of Mosul ?

    Who were they defending ? Themselves ?
    Ahuh. You may have noticed that for over six months, Iraqi Shi'ite and Kurdish forces backed up by US bombers were attacking Mosul, devastating the place, turning it into rubble, driving hundreds of thousands of refugees out and killing an unknown but large part of the civilian population.

    And who was defending Mosul from the assault? If it wasn't ISIS, just who was it? Santa Claus? The Easter bunny?

    -AMH-

  10. #2650
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Ahuh. You may have noticed that for over six months, Iraqi Shi'ite and Kurdish forces backed up by US bombers were attacking Mosul, devastating the place, turning it into rubble, driving hundreds of thousands of refugees out and killing an unknown but large part of the civilian population.

    And who was defending Mosul from the assault? If it wasn't ISIS, just who was it? Santa Claus? The Easter bunny?

    -AMH-
    As you know quite well, ISIS is entirely complicit with this atrocity, which is another Imperialist push at carving up Iraq on sectarian lines.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  11. #2651
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    As you know quite well, ISIS is entirely complicit with this atrocity, which is another Imperialist push at carving up Iraq on sectarian lines.
    ISIS has committed innumerable atrocities. But this is one they hardly can be blamed for. The absolute last thing ISIS wanted was the obliteration of their Mosul stronghold.

    And the purpose of the destruction of Mosul is/was the destruction of ISIS. What that has to do with imperial divide and rule I fail to see. In a feeble attempt to prevent the divisiveness from getting totally out of hand, the sectarian murderous Shi'ite militias, which increasingly are the main military vehicle of the Iraqi regime, were kept out of Mosul. So Sunni hatred for what was done to Mosul actually just might go where it belongs, to American death from the skies and the regime, rather than vs. their Shi'ite brethren. Perhaps reducing divisiveness slightly.

    -AMH-

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