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Thread: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

  1. #2581
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    [QUOTE=A Marxist Historian;460127]
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post

    Swayed? By and large, jihadists simply took the US money and then did what they want, which usually ended up as fighting against the US backed forces in Syria, the US backed government in Iraq, and directly against the US in Afghanistan and at Benghazi. Blowback they call it.

    -AMH-
    The point is that the role of AQI was to create sectarian divide in Iraq and prevent a united insurgency of Sunni and Shia against the US - and the presence of this gang of CIA funded mercenaries (mainly led by Egyptians, including the infamous Ali Muhammed who was actually on the US military payroll) was used by the US Government to justify the war on Iraq.
    The CIA both introduced people into this perverted imperialist jihad, and tried to buy up those who were there off their own bat.

    The people involved had benefited from bucketloads of cash much of it via Bin Laden, who acted as a conduit for finance from the Saudi Government building up forces of jihadis at the behest of the CIA. All also in the standard textbooks.

    Sectarian bombings of Shia civilians and video'd beheadings a speciality.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #2582
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    [QUOTE=C. Flower;460137]
    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post

    The point is that the role of AQI was to create sectarian divide in Iraq and prevent a united insurgency of Sunni and Shia against the US - and the presence of this gang of CIA funded mercenaries (mainly led by Egyptians, including the infamous Ali Muhammed who was actually on the US military payroll) was used by the US Government to justify the war on Iraq.
    The CIA both introduced people into this perverted imperialist jihad, and tried to buy up those who were there off their own bat.

    The people involved had benefited from bucketloads of cash much of it via Bin Laden, who acted as a conduit for finance from the Saudi Government building up forces of jihadis at the behest of the CIA. All also in the standard textbooks.

    Sectarian bombings of Shia civilians and video'd beheadings a speciality.
    That is your interpretation, with which I completely disagree. But we've argued this matter many times before on this thread, for years at this point, so there is no need to repeat ourselves.

    -AMH-

  3. #2583
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Wow .. so many words in response to a simple question that could have been answered in two or three. Why are you so reluctant to be straightforward?
    You ask a question, and then ignore the whole content of the answer. is that straightforward ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #2584
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    [QUOTE=A Marxist Historian;460158]
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post

    That is your interpretation, with which I completely disagree. But we've argued this matter many times before on this thread, for years at this point, so there is no need to repeat ourselves.

    -AMH-
    More facts than interpretation. Disagreeing with facts is something that is not going down too well these days.
    Plenty here about AQ and IFG funding - much wider than the Middle East.

    http://www.investigativeproject.org/...stimony/15.pdf
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    [QUOTE=C. Flower;461020]
    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post

    More facts than interpretation. Disagreeing with facts is something that is not going down too well these days.
    Plenty here about AQ and IFG funding - much wider than the Middle East.

    http://www.investigativeproject.org/...stimony/15.pdf
    What facts do you allege that I disagree with? The title of the link you sent was about funding of AQ by Gulf Emirates.

    How many times have I posted here about that (albeit concentrating more on the Saudis, whose funding I assume to be larger scale, simply because they have more money)? Quite a few. It is a fact on which we agree. It is your interpretation of said fact and other such facts that I consider to be rather absurd, as do others here.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    [QUOTE=A Marxist Historian;461026]
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post

    What facts do you allege that I disagree with? The title of the link you sent was about funding of AQ by Gulf Emirates.

    How many times have I posted here about that (albeit concentrating more on the Saudis, whose funding I assume to be larger scale, simply because they have more money)? Quite a few. It is a fact on which we agree.

    -AMH-
    Look back at your own post -you should be able to work it out.

    It is your interpretation of said fact and other such facts that I consider to be rather absurd, as do others here.
    Good luck to the pair of ye.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    So where does the mainstream analysis come from ?

    Today’s coverage of the Syrian civil war or the Ukraine crisis is so firmly in line with the State Department’s propaganda “themes” that it would put smiles on the faces of William Casey and Walter Raymond if they were around today to see how seamlessly the “perception management” now works. There’s no need any more to send out “public diplomacy” teams to bully editors and news executives. Everyone is already onboard.
    https://consortiumnews.com/2014/12/2...on-management/
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    [QUOTE=C. Flower;461028]
    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Look back at your own post -you should be able to work it out.

    Good luck to the pair of ye.
    More than a pair, I do believe.

    As for working it out, I have already.

    Your belief that there are some well established facts on which we disagree is entirely delusional on your part. None such exist.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Just one example of the well established facts that are not, in fact facts -
    LA Times journalist caught spinning for the CIA on zone attack casualties in Afghanistan.

    http://www.commondreams.org/news/201...cia-publishing

    Reporters from several other news agencies exchanged emails with CIA press officers, with some journalists seeming to have similarly favorable relationships with the agency. David Ignatius of the Washington Post, for example, was invited to a "smaller round table[s]" with agents, which he gladly accepted. Ignatius told the Intercept that such a meeting never took place
    Udo Ulfkotte, a former editor of Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (which is one of Germany's largest newspapers), has decided to go public about the corruption of himself and the rest of the Western 'news' media, because he finds that this corruption is bringing Europe too close to a nuclear war against Russia, which he concludes the U.S. aristocracy that controls the CIA wants to bring about, or else to bring closer to the brink.

    He told Russian Television:
    I've been a journalist for about 25 years, and I've been educated to lie, to betray, and not to tell the truth to the public. ... The German and American media tries to bring war to the people in Europe, to bring war to Russia. This is a point of no return, and I am going to stand up and say ... it is not right what I have done in the past, to manipulate people, to make propaganda against Russia, and it is not right what my colleagues do, and have done in the past, because they are bribed to betray the people not only in Germany, all over Europe. ... I am very fearful of a new war in Europe, and I don't like to have this situation again, because war is never coming from itself, there is always people who push for war, and this is not only politicians, it is journalists too. ... We have betrayed our readers, just to push for war. ... I don't want this anymore, I'm fed up with this propaganda. We live in a banana republic, and not in a democratic country where we have press freedom. ...
    The German media, especially, my colleagues ..., day by day, write against the Russians, [these journalists] who are in transatlantic organizations, and who are supported by the United States to do so. ...
    [9:17] Sometimes the intelligence agencies, they come to your office, and want you to write an article. ... I just remember [for example] that the German foreign intelligence agency, the Bundesnachrichtendienst -- it is just a sister organization of the Central Intelligence Agency, see it was founded by the American intelligence agency -- ... came to my office, and they wanted me to write an article about Libya and about Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. ... They gave me all these secret informations, and they just wanted me to sign the article with my name. I did that. It was published in the Frankfurter Algemeine, ... it was about how he secretly tried to build a poison gas factory, ... it was a story that was printed worldwide days later, but I had no information on that [the CIA wrote it].
    Examples we've seen here include the promotion of the story that "Assad is responsible for ISIS" - Wikileaks revealed that this was a planted story - and the BBC photos of "celebrations in Tripoli" when the city fell were of Benghazi and India (I posted those myself) and of course the blanking out of news we are not meant to see, including the massive ant-NATO protests that were taking place in Libya.

    Imbibing and regurgitating this stuff uncritically is not analysis.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Just one example of the well established facts that are not, in fact facts -
    LA Times journalist caught spinning for the CIA on zone attack casualties in Afghanistan....

    http://www.commondreams.org/news/201...cia-publishing
    We definitely have some cognitive dissonance here.

    That some mainstream journalists in America collaborate with the CIA, the State Department, etc., in my book is a well established fact that is a fact. The great WMD scandal at the New York Times, which forced them to fire Judith Miller, established that pretty well even for the blind.

    -AMH-

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    The leaked cable that exposed a CIA/Blackwater man as working on Syrian regime change in 2011-2012 (after having been present at the killing of Gaddhafi) also mentions US contractors Booz Hamilton as being at the same game. Income of over 4 billion a year and packed with assets. Snowden, interestingly, is a former Booz Hamilton employee.

    https://leaksource.wordpress.com/201...llen-hamilton/
    Last edited by C. Flower; 31-01-2017 at 04:04 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    We definitely have some cognitive dissonance here.

    That some mainstream journalists in America collaborate with the CIA, the State Department, etc., in my book is a well established fact that is a fact. The great WMD scandal at the New York Times, which forced them to fire Judith Miller, established that pretty well even for the blind.

    -AMH-
    Indeed. Even former President Obama's first job was for a CIA publication, "Business International". But that didn't stop people lapping him up as a "Community candidate".
    Oh dear.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #2593
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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    From last August, a time in which disaffected Generals were gathering themselves around the Trump campaign. There is a rift between those in the Administration who have been content to watch ISIS grow (or who, according to many, fostered and enabled the arming of ISIS) so that they would bring down Assad and break up Syria, and those in the Pentagon who think ISIS and a fragmented Syria is more dangerous to the US than Assad. Neither side has any regard for the "sandbox" they are playing in.

    http://time.com/4474910/isis-retired-generals/

    Former U.S. Commanders Take Increasingly Dim View of War on ISIS
    Mark Thompson

    Aug 31, 201

    It’s a most peculiar war: rarely has the U.S. been killing so many while risking so few. The U.S. is beating ISIS handily, judging by Vietnam’s body-count metric. The total number of ISIS battlefield deaths claimed by U.S. officials has jumped, from 6,000 in January 2015 to 45,000 last month—a bloodbath for an enemy force estimated to number about 30,000. Three U.S. troops have died. That’s an eye-watering U.S.-to-ISIS “kill ratio” of 15,000-to-1. “We’ve got good momentum going,” General Joseph Votel, chief of U.S. Central Command, who is overseeing the war, said Tuesday. “We are really into the heart of the caliphate.”

    ((note) scores of officials have gone public to reveal that the US gov. has grossly inflated claims of damage to ISIS - C.F.)

    But some of his predecessors disagree. James Mattis, a retired Marine general who commanded Central Command from 2010 to 2013, says the war on ISIS is “unguided by a sustained policy or sound strategy [and is] replete with half-measures.” Anthony Zinni, a retired Marine four-star who held the same post from 1997 to 2000, says he doesn’t think he could do so today. “I don't want to be part of a strategy that in my heart of hearts I know is going to fail,” he says. “It's a bad strategy, it's the wrong strategy, and maybe I would tell the President that he would be better served to find somebody who believes in it, whoever that idiot may be.”

    Day after day, American warplanes, sometimes joined by allies, have been attacking individual ISIS targets, down to backhoes and foxholes. ISIS has lost 40% of its Iraqi territory, the Pentagon says, and 5% in Syria. It doesn’t seem to have lost any of the terrain it has staked out on the internet. That’s slow progress by a 27-state military alliance against a two-year-old rump state.The U.S.-led war against the Islamic State is entering its third year (eclipsing the time the U.S. spent fighting World War I). In part, that’s because it’s a small-bore campaign: the U.S. is spending $4 billion a year, equal to a third the cost of a single aircraft carrier (planes not included). “Employing an anemic application of force relative to previous air campaigns has yielded the Islamic State time to export their message, garner followers, and spread their message,” says David Deptula, a retired Air Force lieutenant general who planned the 1991 bombing campaign that all-but-drove Iraqi forces out of Kuwait. “A comprehensive strategy to rapidly decompose the Islamic State is still lacking.”

    On the ground—the only way to retake territory—the hapless Iraqi army, Kurdish forces, and a motley medley of Syrian rebels are spear-heading the fight. U.S. troops alongside them (about 5,000 in Iraq, and 300 in Syria), serve primarily as advisers, in another unfortunate echo of Vietnam. ISIS continues to hold on to its key centers of gravity: its self-declared capital in the Syrian city of Raqqa, and Mosul, Iraq’s second-largest city, 300 miles away. “I’ve talked to some U.S. generals who are really frustrated—they could be in Raqqa in a week,” Zinni says. The U.S. is “losing credibility and they’re actually encouraging the enemy because they’re able to hold the ground for years now.”But bombs or ground troops, by themselves, can’t cure ISIS or whatever radical group springs up to replace it. “Proposals to escalate or accelerate the campaign in Iraq and Syria in order to hasten the Islamic State group's defeat would accomplish a lot less than commonly supposed,” says Stephen Biddle, a military analyst at the Council on Foreign Relations who advised then-general David Petraeus on Iraq from 2007 to 2009. “The problem isn't taking Mosul or Raqqa—it's what would come afterward. Stabilization is unlikely without an investment vastly larger than most Americans will support.” The U.S. has spent $3 trillion and nearly 7,000 lives trying to bring stability to Afghanistan and Iraq, with little to show for it. (For his part, Petraeus, who ran Central Command from 2008 to 2010, only acknowledges that “we’re waging war in a way that is somewhat unique.”)

    ISIS’s tenacity is the oxygen that gives life to would-be jihadists around the globe, pumping violence into places like Britain, France, Germany and the U.S. The significance of Tuesday’s killing of ISIS strategist Abu Muhammad Adnani, apparently in a U.S. drone strike, marks a clear blow to the jihadists. But there are others, waiting in the wings, eager to replace him, U.S. officials say.Current U.S. commanders say their progress is limited by the lack of local ground forces to retake territory from ISIS. They estimated from the start that the fight could take at least three years, winning credit for candor that was MIA when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003. U.S. officials say the anti-ISIS forces are making slow, but steady, gains, and an offensive to retake Mosul may begin by year’s end (originally, the Pentagon had penciled in April 2015 for the effort to retake northern Iraq’s largest city).
    Part of the challenge is the Gordian knot that the Iraq-Syrian theater has become. ISIS sprang from the now-five-year-old Syrian civil war, which has killed 400,000 and displaced 10 million. Nearly half have fled the country, fomenting unrest across Europe. Iran and Russian back the government of Syrian President Bashar Assad—a fight the U.S. has resolutely refused to enter (even after Assad, despite a warning of a “red line” by President Obama, used chemical weapons on his own people in 2013). “At the end of the day, our current U.S. policy in the region has failed expensively and shredded our credibility,” says Barry McCaffrey, a retired Army general says retired Army general Barry McCaffrey, who led an Army division into Iraq in 1991’s Gulf War.

    With more than a dozen air forces overhead, and about 1,000 armed factions on the ground, the risk of crossfires and mistaken shoot downs is ever present. Don’t think that doesn’t pre-occupy U.S. military planners. Given the death-by-fire of Jordanian pilot Moaz al-Kasasbeh at ISIS hands last year after his F-16 crash-landed inside the self-declared caliphate, the U.S. is going to great lengths to keep its ISIS-fighting troops safe. U.S. domestic political pressure to smash ISIS would surge following any such capture and torture of a U.S. pilot or commando. That’s why robust combat-search and rescue teams are on alert whenever U.S. warplanes fly in harm’s way, and why the U.S. military is training its forces to elude capture and escape from “a typical remote Iraqi/Syrian village.”

    The U.S. has big goals for a small-scale war. Washington sees its mission as destroying ISIS, helping negotiate an end to the Syrian civil war, and keeping the lid on the historic rivalry between Islam’s Sunni and Shiite branches. Iran and Russia back Syria’s Assad. Saudi Arabia and Turkey want him gone. But Turkey is a problematic NATO ally that views Kurdish separatists, a key U.S. ally in the ISIS fight, as a bigger threat than ISIS. The U.S. is backing four major rebel groups with air strikes: the Iraqi army, moderate Syrian rebels, and separate Kurdish forces in Iraq and Syria. But crushing ISIS helps Assad, fueling the civil war, and bolstering Kurdish fighters angers Turkey, which believes some are allied with a Turkish Kurdish group responsible for terror attacks inside that country.All this, rightly or wrongly, has tied U.S. hands. “There is no political will in the White House to even listen to serious recommendations from military commands,” says Derek Harvey, a retired Army military-intelligence colonel who spent much of his career in Iraq. “The original strategy explained by the President was barely adequate and even that was not resourced or executed well.” While Obama’s go-slow approach loses its lease in January, neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump has detailed a replacement. “First and foremost are we going to be decisive and have some balls, or just continue to try to manage conflict to unacceptable ends,” Harvey adds. “If not the former, then we should not play in the sandbox.”
    As the long-awaited showdown to retake Mosul looms, cracks are appearing in the allied front. Iraq's parliament voted to oust Defense Minister Khaled al-Obeidi on corruption charges Aug 25. In recent days, it has become clear that the Qayara air base south of Mosul that is supposed to be a major launching pad for the assault was almost completed destroyed by retreating ISIS fighters in July. And Kurdish forces—long lauded as the best fighters in the region—are hungry. “The Peshmerga are not getting enough calories to keep them in the field,” Army Lt. Gen. Sean MacFarland said Aug. 10 as he wrapped up his 11 months in charge of the ISIS fight. “We’re very interested in making sure that they have enough food just to carry on the fight.” Such news could well delay the Mosul fight into 2017.“Doing nothing would be far preferable to this mess,” says Daniel Bolger, a retired Army three-star who commanded troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq before retiring in 2013. He plucks a quote from the military history he teaches at North Carolina State University, when asked about current U.S. strategy. It comes from a French general after he witnessed the doomed charge of the British Light Brigade against the Russians in the Crimean War in 1854: "It is magnificent, but it is not war,” Pierre Bosquet said. “It is madness.”
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Mass flight of civilians from Mosul was pre-planned. Perhaps no option with ISIS installed and battle inevitable, but the destruction of Iraq's second city is a disaster for the country, The Middle East is being trashed and melted down for soap.

    https://www.indy100.com/article/mosu..._campaign=i100
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc. etc. - Where did they come from, where are they going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Mass flight of civilians from Mosul was pre-planned. Perhaps no option with ISIS installed and battle inevitable, but the destruction of Iraq's second city is a disaster for the country, The Middle East is being trashed and melted down for soap.

    https://www.indy100.com/article/mosu..._campaign=i100
    No option for whom? Obama? Trump? The CIA string pullers? The Shi'te death squads?

    The only reason ISIS has had the popular acceptance it has had in the Sunni population is they see "no option" other than ISIS to defend them against imperial havoc and sectarian abuse and murder by the Shi'ite joint US/Iranian puppet regime the US ended up installing in Iraq. If the US were to get out and the death squads were curbed by the regime, ISIS would sooner or later collapse. Instead, Iraq and Syria are being drowned in blood, and when ISIS is destroyed, sectarian mutual mass murder will if anything get worse.

    -AMH-

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